460: Advice
Posted by Lucy on March 4th, 2010. Filed under: Uncategorized.I have this really bad habit of giving advice. Asked for, unasked for, whatever. If someone comes to me with a problem, I tell them how to fix it. I understand female emotional venting, where someone wants to just speak and be heard, but I also have a very strong male component to my personality, and it is that I show my love through acts of service.
I fix things. Or, rather, I try.
Usually, this works out okay. Usually, the advice is well-taken; sometimes, even helpful. Sometimes, more rarely, I actually am able to restrain myself and not tell someone how to fix things.
But recently, a friend came to me with some questions about possibly getting married. He laid out a scenario for me, some of the details of which I felt were contraindicated for marriage. I won’t share those details with you, just suffice it to say, I believe now that he might possibly have just been thinking aloud, and that he might possibly have not wanted me to tell him that marriage under those circumstances would lead to hell for both him and his leading lady and it’s better to maybe part ways now before they made each other miserable.
I just realized this morning that I haven’t heard from him since, and it was only then that I realized what I had done. In my defense, I did warn him before I spouted that perhaps I wasn’t the best person to be talking to about marriage.
The fact is that a lot of what happened between me and Fish – not all of it, but a fair amount – can be traced back to one solid fact: I don’t believe I’m the kind of person who should be married. Obviously, things are a lot more complicated than that, but when it comes to my views on marriage, it’s that there are people who are made to be married, and those who are made not to be married. I’m of the not group, and so, very possibly, I’m not the person to come to for marriage advice. Is all I’m saying.
So, paths to hell paved with good intentions and all, I think I may have possibly maybe offended my friend. But you know… he did ask. Literally, there were question marks in the e-mail. And I did warn – what I said was bathed in foaming bubbles of disclaimer. Still, I find myself thinking that this tendency of mine to show my affection through acts of service may need some adjusting; perhaps sometimes the act of service is to know when someone doesn’t really want your honest opinion, and to know when to shut the hell up and just be supportive. Because the fact is, as bad as marriage as an institution was for me, and as difficult as the last few years were, I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything. There are probably a lot of people who, at the end of their marriages, might wish they could go back in time and force themselves to turn a different corner, go to a different bar, never meet the ex in the first place. I’m not in that number. We had a great time, a lot of the time, and Fish is a good man. He’s got a wonderful family who I love dearly and who have accepted me, even as I am now, with open arms. I have two incredible kids who I would go through it all over again for, a million times. And because of that experience, I am who I am now, and I like who I am now.
I’d like myself more if I could just learn to shut the hell up, but you know… it’s all a process.
March 4th, 2010 at 7:24 am
Two things:
Advice is only an opinion, given with as much hope as it is asked for. You did nothing wrong, couching your tentative concerns in disclaimer, offering your truth and your observations.
I did the same. My best friend, with whom I have talked and laughed a million hours, sang the soundtrack of Guys and Dolls badly and loudly with the DVD, rated the relative hotness of, at times, Young Marlon Brando in Streetcar, Young Bruce Willis in Moonlighting, Formidable Sean Connery in First Knight, all the guys on General Hospital in the 90′s–the woman of whom I believe no mortal man could be worthy. She married him anyway, a gambler who is only occasionally employed and whose conversation is so blatantly racist that I actually bit my lip until it bled during a holiday visit.
I told her I was afraid for her, that I saw things in him that I think could make her unhappy in time. She responded that she loved him and that my husband hadn’t been such a good bet at one time, if I would recall. The message was clear: She loves him in the fierce, even wrongheaded way that people getting married should have. And my job is to love her and keep my worry to myself and shut my mouth.
Shockingly, I can do that. For her I can do anything.
Huh. I said “Two things” when I started but I don’t remember a second thing. Oh well.
March 4th, 2010 at 8:24 am
but now I am overwhelmed with curiosity. What differentiates a person who should not get married from those for whom marriage is a good thing? I guess I always thought it had more to do with who you chose to marry. No, okay: like, say, Madonna, or A-Rod – people for whom the concept of keeping your pants on presents great difficulty – these are not, to me, people that should be promising to have and to hold. Not that they’re bad people, necessarily, but monogamy seems to be an issue and so they probably shouldn’t promise to be monogamous. But I have this feeling that you are meaning something very different here.
March 4th, 2010 at 8:28 am
I have worried that much of what I comment on here sounds like unwanted advice. I think, “Who am I to tell Lucy how things will be?” “My divorce is not her divorce, I should just shut up.” But then I think, “Oh, but I went through that too!” or “I know JUST how she feels, and I know it will get better, she needs to know that…”
So we all do it. Feel free to take what you need, leave what dosen’t feel right. You are going to chart you own course. As you should.
Our motivations are to help and to protect. If you only gave the advice they wanted to hear, you are not doing your friend a service. I have looked back at advice I was given and can see now that I should have listened sometimes. There was tough love stuff offered to me that was right, but not right for me at the time. So I made dumb choices, but I survived, and learned, and can offer what I have learned. But I don’t take offence when my advice is not heeded, I wait for the next time I am needed. And I never, never say I told you so…worst words to say in a friendship ever!
(Except when advice about the bad shoes to wear shopping was not taken. In that case when your friend complains about sore feet you are allowed to say suck it up buttercup I told you not to wear heels to a power-shop.)
I have a friend who lives nearby who is going through a shitty breakup. She is hurting bad, I want to help, but I don’t want to push my way into her privacy. I divorced in this small town too, I saw those looks of pity or judgement, I want to protect my friend from that small town stuff. So I check in with her on facebook, I offer “tea dates” at Tim Hortons (Canadian Institution), I listen, I answer questions when asked, and I don’t talk to anyone else in town about it. That is my wisdom. Sometimes this getting older and wiser thing is OK.
March 4th, 2010 at 8:48 am
Yesterday my little sister had a Very Bad Day. We talked on the phone at least 6 times, most of her calls to me started with her shrieking, “I just have to vent!” Now see, she spelled out for me what she needed (just to get a lot of irritation off her chest before it spilled all over her unsuspecting children) but could I keep my mouth shut?! No. No, I couldn’t. Half of the things I said to her ended with, “and I know that this is none of my business but omg, girl, heed my words!” Because I love her (and because it really worries us worriers when we see someone we care for heading into a forest marked with all of those ominous Turn back now! signs.) As for Wes’ question, while I can’t presume to know what Lucy’s answer is, for me the answer (as to who should not marry) is: anyone that lacks boundaries.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:04 am
The problem with giving relationship advice to any friend is twofold. One, if they don’t want to hear it, they’ll ignore it at best and be mad at you at worst. And there’s no good “I told you so” feeling when their world crumbles. One of my friends from college is getting a divorce from a pig that I told her was a pig back when they started dating. Seven years of marriage and two kids later he’s just not happy. Because he’s a very large allen wrench (you know… a giant useless tool?). But back then, he was hot and played in a band and just AWESOME. And so she wouldn’t hear it.
Giving opinions is something that I’ve been trying to help my husband with. Not that I’m not opinionated. Not that I don’t give unsolicited advice, god knows I do. But when I ask “Honey, does this make me look fat” while I don’t want him to lie, the answer is never “Well, you ARE fat, how do you want me to answer this?” So, tact. Yeah. Tact. Advice and opinions generally go over better with a few drops of it
March 4th, 2010 at 9:15 am
I’m horrible at that too — I spew my thoughts the second I think them, regardless of someone wanting my opinion or not. As I’ve gotten older (ripe ol’ 40 now), I find that it I can control it a little more. But do I want to? I mean, anyone who knows me knows this little fact of mouth-spewing that I have, and if they come to me knowing those things upfront, then I guess they want to hear every.single.thing. that comes out of my mouth.
Just be true to yourself. In the end, it’s all you can do anyway. If YOU view something about yourself as a personal flaw you want to work on, okay — but acknowledge who you are, and don’t beat yourself up for giving advice to SOMEONE WHO ASKED FOR IT. I mean… geeze.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:24 am
Gosh, you sucked this post right out of my head. Is that what it is? We have this overbearing man-gene lingering amongts the woman genes? I’m a fixer. Can’t help myself. If there’s a mountain, we’ll go around it or over it or through it, but by God, we’ll fix this problem. I’ve driven more than one friend nuts with this and yet don’t know how to stop it.
I too am not cut out to be married. I’ve figured that out and though I’m good with it, it makes me sigh a bit too. It’s the hopeless romantic part of me that doesn’t want to admit the truth.
Wes – I agree with your assessment, people who struggle with monogamy, or simply don’t plan to be monogamous, probably are not cut out for marriage. But that is not the case for me.
In my case, it’s more like I’m this large structure taking up my entire life boat. I can row, repair, steer, and navigate all on my own. And I’m not going to be turning those duties over or sharing them with anyone else anytime soon. Now, I’m sure there are couples who can go through life happy as can be in side-by-side life boats, but for a marriage to work, you really need to both be in the same boat.
My boat is a one-seater.
Not to say this is what Lucy means. This is just me.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Lucy: Here is my opinion, and my unasked for advice. I don’t think that you did anything wrong. If you stated blatantly that you were not the one to give advice, then I don’t see how he can be upset. However, to be honest here you don’t know for a fact that your friend is angry with you. You are assuming (which as my mother always told me makes an ass out of u and me. *grins*), and in doing so may be doing him a greater disservice. Perhaps he’s just at a busy point in his life. The only way to know is ask. And if your advice was unwanted, apologize. I only say this because it’s worked for me the NUMEROUS amounts of time that I have put my foot in my mouth. (I should come with flavored shoes. *laughs*)
Shangrila: Thank you for being there to absorb my venting. *hugs* And in our family, after almost 30 years, I know that when I ask to vent, I’m also asking for advice. *laughs* It’s good to be loved enough to be worried over.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:39 am
-There you go thinking it’s all about you. Maybe he got food for thought and went to stew over it a bit. That is some serious stuff to think about.
-Yeah, I think everyone has that problem, as natural “givers”, when asked we try to help… most of the time that’s a good thing. And yes, sometimes people just need to say things out loud and be heard, not get advice, but I was always told that you shouldn’t ask a question if you weren’t prepared to hear an answer.
-A true friend will be back (time with no contact does not mean no friend). Friends are never offended by their friends “space”. And the marks of a true friend are: they are the only people, not police; allowed to call at 2am for any reason at all; you may start any friend meeting with “how the hell (or any other expletive) are you?” & no one raises an eyebrow; they will give it to you straight & neither the giver or the receiver is offended, all is taken with a handful of salt; and last, true friends don’t just help you bury the body, they help you kill the s.o.b., and then they let you cry on their shoulder afterwards while feeding you chocolate.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:40 am
Absolutely everyone does this, some more than others, but still it is somewhat of an epidemic. It’s not that you hand out advice that you should worry about, it’s the reason you feel compelled to do it that is the issue. I have found that some people do it because of love and concern, this is okay, your opinion has been asked for and you give it. What they do with your advice is entirely up to them.
Unfortunately, there are others who give their advice with less than honorable intent. They are those who revel in the suffering of others in a pitiful attempt to make themselves feel better. Or they are bitter and angry and can’t see past their own ugliness.
YOU my dear Lucy are not the latter. Don’t beat yourself up, your words came from your heart and you even included a disclaimer – what more could you do? One of my friends once broke up with her long-time boyfriend and I along with another of our friends were quick to tell her that she would be better off, he wasn’t good enough for her, didn’t support her the way he should. Six months later, she was engaged to him. Fifteen years later, they are still married and she’s happy. We still don’t think he’s good enough for her and we still know she could have done better. We spoke the truth as we saw it, she just happened to see it a different way. The three of us are still very close, and it has never been mentioned. It was, after all, just our opinion.
Your friend will come back around if the friendship was a true one. He’s probably mulling things over and figuring things out for himself. I doubt that you were the only one he solicited advice from, he’s got a lot to consider.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:01 am
I am exactly this way. And I’m notorious with friends and family about always telling the truth whether you want it or not. Although, I have gotten better as I get older (40 later this year!) about keeping my mouth shut a little more often. Really, it’s only been the last couple of years that I’ve bit my tongue even a little. I definitely think you did nothing wrong. However, this is coming from another fixer.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:14 am
See here’s the thing: your friend came to you, knowing you’re in the middle of Two Years of Divorce Crazy and asked you *marriage advice*. It’s likely that, somewhere in his brain, he *wanted* the answer you gave him and then when he got it it threw him for a loop.
See I have two BFFs – I’m very lucky. Especially since we all play well together as the occasional trio. But they are very different and I know when I take a problem to them I will get radically different opinions. For example, my husband will do something that PISSES me off. If i want commiseration and “burn down his village!” support, I turn to K. If I have even the slightest doubt that I might be overreacting, I go to J. If she picks up a torch and says, “let’s call K and get this party started!” then I know I’m justified.
Free opinions and advice! Solicit me! Or not, as you wish.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:23 am
I agree that he’s most likely taking it in, maybe being a little upset over the situation, trying to figure out what to do with the advice he, after all, ASKED FOR. If your friend knows you, he knew what he was getting when he asked for it, so let it go for a few more days. Sometimes the unhappy answer is painful to process, but a show of love from a friend in the form of truthful advice, shouldn’t be enough to crack the whole friendship.
This very subject (the whole fixer-upper thing) was part of my blog yesterday. It’s going around, isn’t it?
March 4th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Advice to the lovelorn is never a good thing. Because it will always be you against the LOVE OF THEIR LIFE and, btw, you’re talking smack about someone they love with every fiber of their being. The lovelorn will always side with the LOTL everytime. They’ve got to figure it out for themselves.
I usually end my well meaning advice with “or I could be talking out my ass.” Some people just don’t want to hear the truth anyway and instead of getting defensive and argumentative, they get an opportunity to laugh and shrug off any unintentionally offending comments. Because it’s the friendship that matters, not which one of us is right or wrong. Or the most stubborn. At least that’s what I hope.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:49 am
I think it’s important to speak up when you think someone is making a relationship mistake. From when I was barely 15 to when I was almost 22 I dated a guy who all my friends seemed to like so I ignored all the little warning flags (like that he got really upset when I made new male friends, didn’t want me going to parties when he wanted to play video games with his friends, tried to convince me that my family hated, and told me that I was lucky I had met him before I developed my tic because no guy would look twice at a girl who makes weird noises like that, ok, I guess those weren’t little). It took two newer friends listening when I’d complain about an argument and pointing out “hey, this seems to be happening a lot, could it be a pattern?” and even “you deserve to be happy, you’re young” (that was from a mentor/friend who was about 6 years older). I’m still grateful to both of them for speaking up because no one else said anything until after the breakup because they didn’t think it was their place. This meant that even though I thought about breaking up for two years before I did it, because everyone else seemed to love us together I thought that there must be something wrong with me to think about breaking up. I needed friends to tell me that I didn’t seem happy and that I deserved better. At least for me, it’s helpful to know that there are people who will call me out if a relationship seems unhealthy. I hate to think what would have happened if those two friends hadn’t been honest with me.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:56 am
First I read your blog every morning. I love it. You are a “real person” with real thoughts that are written out. Second for your friend. You have to remember that he does have that Y chromosome that gives them some traits that women don’t have, for example he probably did not listen to all you had to say. He probably took bits and pieces. Two he already had an anwswer in his head he probably wanted it validated and knowing where you are in marriage he could get the correct validation from you. Also if he really wants to marry this woman then why is he questioning it. If it feels right just do it. Also he is probably not ignoring you. He is busy. Men sometimes don’t feel they have to check in everyday and chat and see how things are going, they usually just assume everything is good.
(I usually don’t respond-because I am not a writer and grammer is not a strong point for me.)
But I just wanted you to know that you are wonderful!!!
March 4th, 2010 at 11:08 am
You know that old saying about opinions being somewhat akin to assholes? So does he. What’s more, if he asked you, knowing what you’ve gone through lately and having been your friend and knowing what you are like — you fixer types make yourselves known pretty early on — I don’t see how he could be offended. That being said, if you think you did, feel free to call and offer your apology. Not for having given advice when asked, but for your advice having offended him when it was not your intention.
Advice is not the sole purveyance of the fixer class. We all do it. I’m no fixer, but if asked, my advice will shoot from my mouth like a cork from a champagne bottle with all the fizz of didactic lecture in hot pursuit. And who the hell am I to say? No one, that’s who. Does it stop me? No. Because I’m human.
We all do it, as evidenced by the multitude of comments on any given blog/web page/news story anywhere. Don’t beat yourself up over it. Or do. Who the hell am I to say, right? I really wish you wouldn’t, though…
Shutting up.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:11 am
@Betty Bye-Anytime, kid! Love you forever.
@Crash Test Betty-Reading, “If she picks up a torch and says, “let’s call K and get this party started!” then I know I’m justified.” made me snort soda-thankyouverymuch! LOL.
There’s a scene in Jennifer Crusie’s Bet Me where one sister tells another (and I’m totally paraphrasing, here), “If you want to get married I’m 100% behind you, but if you want out of here I will go and get my keys right now and get you out of here! If you want to leave in a week, a month, even after your first child, I’ll be there for you.” I loved that, that total support, that the character trusted her sister to make her own decisions but allowed for mistakes with no judgment if the whole thing tanked. I’ve kinda used it as my measuring stick when offering support ever since.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:13 am
I’ve never bought the idea that the urge to problem-solve and give advice is inherently “male” and just sympathetically listening is “female”. In my relationship, it’s completely the opposite and something I’ve had to really struggle to learn how to manage. When my partner tells me his problems, he doesn’t WANT to hear advice on how to solve them, he just wants sympathy…but since I only tell people my problems in hopes of getting a solution to them (it’s my way of waving a big flag and shouting “HELP!”), I find it almost impossible to keep my mouth shut and NOT try to solve all his problems for him, despite the fact that I do theoretically know better.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:14 am
What makes you so convinced that you’re not one for marriage? Does marriage not leave you enough space to dive into whatever your heart and soul tells you to do (I guess it would be writing)? Or don’t you like having someone around all the time (well, when not working)? Do you prefer female company? Just curious here because I couldn’t imaging sticking together with someone and giving up my freedom to some (big) degree, but almost 20 years ago (wow, is it really that long ago) I met a great guy on some university excursion and with a handful of other guys and girls we had a blast of a time and became really good friends. He’s my best friend ever and I wouldn’t want to miss him ever again. Well, yes, he also became my hubby, but to this day he’s above all the one person who understands me best and he totally gets me.
though, but maybe this whole not-for-marriage-thing is a conviction of your crazy-time. And to relax and get centred again is surely the first step to be able to let anything (that is good for you) happen again in the future.
Not to give you any advice on this topic
March 4th, 2010 at 11:14 am
@Betty Page-”my advice will shoot from my mouth like a cork from a champagne bottle with all the fizz of didactic lecture in hot pursuit.” That sentence? GENIUS.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:22 am
I agree that if he asked and you disclaimed that you didn’t cross any boundaries – but that tact is always valuable in these situations. Even if you’re 100% right, the bearer of bad news is rarely given chocolates and champagne. So every sentence should be followed by “Of course, an outsider can never see all of a relationship and I’ll be happy for you no matter what you choose”. Or words to that effect.
So, my question has to do with the male/ female venting/ advice/ fixing dynamic: if males tend to be more fixers and females more empathizers when they RECEIVE confidences/ complaints, are men really asking for analysis and fixes when they ask for advice? We all, of course, want confirmation that we are right (and charming, patient and funny) and sympathy, but is there a difference among men and women in what we want when requesting advice? It’s been a long time since I read either You Just Don’t Understand or Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:29 am
Oh, I can so relate. I’m a fixer. It’s stamped in neon ink on my forehead. As I’ve gotten older I’ve tried not to be a know-it-all and give my advice so readily, but it’s hard to stop the flow of words, especially when asked. : )
And even though you didn’t ask for advice today, here’s mine. : 0
I’d suggest sending your friend an email and say in hindsight you realize you looked at his situation from a practical viewpoint not an emotional one (which he is coming from) and you want him to know he has your support no matter what he eventually decides. Then leave it alone, and when he’s ready he’ll confide again.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:30 am
To offer a slightly differing opinion (but to by no means condemn Lucy or anyone else who gives unsolicited advice, since I, too, do it all the time):
My rule of thumb is that if I have to preface anything with “I’m probably not the best person to ask about this,” I say that first, and hold the advice until asked a second time. That a) gives the other person time to decide if they really want my honest opinion, and b) gives me time to think through how much of what I’m saying is objective and how much biased by whatever it is that makes me “not the best person” for the issue. It seems to me that if you know you need to preface an opinion with a disclaimer then you probably also know that you’re not going to be able to give the other person fair consideration; since you can’t un-ring the bell, just wait a breath to ring it. Nine times out of ten they’re going to say “no, tell me anyway,” but then they’ve actively asked for what they know will be biased advice, and can’t fairly get mad about it later on. Saves everyone a lot of drama.
On the other hand, I also think there’s a fine, fine line between being “not the right person” to give advice because you’re in the middle of something, and being the perfect person to give advice because you have experience that could be of use to someone else. Even if they have to parse through what you’re telling them to decide whether or not it will be true for them, putting the bad on the table along with the idealized/optimistic/Julie-Andrews-Singing-In-A-Field kinds of dreams is, in my humble opinion, never a bad thing. Especially with something like marriage, if you don’t go in aware that bad crap is out there, how do you ever expect to be able to deal with it when it inevitably lands on your shoe?
(Sidenote: since I’m pretty sure I’m something like 20 years younger than the average poster on this site, I’m officially claiming “Baby Betty” as my Betty name. It is now, as they say, in the books. Sorry for being behind the times….
)
March 4th, 2010 at 11:39 am
Right now, I’d *love* for some advice. My friends are very careful not to offend or overstep. They listen very well, but getting anyone to say “here’s what I think you should do” is like pulling teeth. And sometimes, that’s what people need – someone to validate what they think they know but aren’t sure of, or another viewpoint that maybe differs from their own view, but is food for thought. Or the big one – someone to say what you deep down know, but are too afraid to say out loud yourself.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:44 am
I’ve realized something. I hardly ever say this to my friends, “I am so happy in my marriage”. When they come to me and ask advice, I usually demur. I think I’m a little embarrassed to be happy in a relationship now and that disqualifies me from advice giving. Growing up was not something I look back on fondly, and I still drag around a lot of stained, heavy baggage, but I was lucky enough to meet and recognize and fall for a smart, kind, terrific guy. (Well, that’s that weird sense of humor.) He recognized me, too, and fell for me, even though he could see the trail of luggage following me. In our circle of friends, we are a rarity and sometimes I think they study us like they would any freaks of nature. So, while I have advice and think it would benefit some of my friends, I hold back. What if I’m wrong and they’re miserable and I’m still happy? Somewhere inside, I’m pretty sure that they’d resent me and that the friendship would wither. I know that’s not giving them enough credit, and that I’m probably doing them a disservice by holding back, but that’s what I do. Hey, sometimes it’s hard enough knowing that by luck or fate or fortune or a Fairy Godmother, I’m happy with a man and they are not. I feel apologetic, undeserving; not able to empathize fully enough with their pain. Hell, as much as I’ve revealed here already, scars and warts alike, this is harder to write, because I can’t bear for friends here (or not here) to think I’m boasting or complacent. This is hard to say, but I’m very happy with my husband and a coward when it comes to giving advice.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:56 am
I too can relate. There’s a reason my blog is named “Open Mouth, Insert Foot” — I always have an opinion, but I’ve gotten much better at filtering what I say. At one of my previous jobs, a co-worker nicknamed me “Kia,” which stood for “Know It All.” Our office was very small and anytime I would hear someone wondering out-loud about something, or bitching that something wasn’t working right, I would always pop my head over the cubicle wall if I knew the answer – which, due to the nature of our work, was often. I know my co-worker meant it with affection, because she knew she was scatterbrained and not very good with computers, so she appreciated the help. But the nickname didn’t sit well with me, and ever since I’m done my best to temper myself and my impulse to offer advice and assistance.
Now, being more active in the blogosphere, the opportunities to throw out opinions are abundant, and sometimes it’s hard to know how anything you say will be received. Personally, I *like* getting advice and hearing about similar experiences or knowledge that others might have about something I’m dealing with, as long as it’s delivered in a non-condescending manner.
Lucy, as far as your friend is concerned, I agree with the other Betties – he knew what you had been dealing with, relationship-wise, and he *did* ask, and you were completely honest. I can totally understand why you might feel bad now, after not hearing from him, but he may need time to process what you said and deal with his situation a bit more before coming back to you. But if I were in your shoes, I would write to him again as well.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:59 am
There’s another blogger I read who refers to unasked-for advice as “assvice”, and this makes me laugh every time I see it. I don’t know if she coined the term, but I love it.
Not that I think you gave your friend assvice. It sounds like he was looking for your input (even if he was just thinking out loud, if he didn’t respond to your “I’m not the best person to be giving advice” with “Oh, no, I’m not asking for it, I’m just thinking out loud”, then in my opinion he was open to receiving advice from you), and if he wanted to know what you thought, it’s not assvice.
But assvice is a funny word and I wanted to share.
March 4th, 2010 at 12:40 pm
I don’t know where the line is between being a supportive friend and enabling. I have apparently lost a dear friend recently and, looking back, I can see that I have been walking away from her, and she from me, for a long time. Every time I didn’t say, “You know what you need to do; why aren’t you doing it?” instead of “yeah, I understand you don’t want to,” I took a step farther away. Looking back, I can see I wasn’t completely honest with her and I also took the easy way out by not speaking up.
Friendship is hard work. Do those bitchin’ rules (I won’t deliberately harm you; I can’t read your mind) work for friendships, too?? If so, Lucy, learn what you need to from the situation and let go of the result. He may come back in a week and say “it was hard to hear but thanks.” Or he may not. You’re okay either way.
March 4th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
And another thing: I was also “not one for marriage,” but tried it twice (slow learner). Marriage apparently requires two partners: I could neither make it work nor break it all by myself. (Did I mention the slow learner part?)
So now I’m happily married. Also stunned.
March 4th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
@ Erin- Anne Nahm? She uses that all the time. I don’t know where it came from, but its fitting.
My darling Lucy- if some one asks for advice- with question marks no less- you are allowed to give it. Even if they are asking rhetorical questions. Because assuming this person is a friend that knows you fairly well- he should realize that you are the sort to try and help. He came to you, no? Why didn’t he email his friend that listens and says “Hey man, I don’t know. Do whatever the hell you want.”
He knew you would give honest advice. The End.
Don’t take on unneeded worry. You have enough of your own right now.
March 4th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
I’ve also always attributed my advice-giving to a rogue male gene, although it sounds like maybe it’s just as much a female trait… interesting. It makes me wonder where that idea comes from.
Anyway, yes, advice, I give it. A lot. Way too much, probably. But over the years, I’ve established one rule that I try to stick to. When someone I love is complaining about a loved one, I just listen and nod, and say, “That sucks. I am here for you. If you need anything, just say the word.” That’s it, because ninety-nine times out of a hundred the issue will resolve itself. The relationship will continue, and I don’t want my half of the “what a jerk” conversation to be the only side my friend remembers years from now.
So, that’s my advice.
March 4th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Well, an update: I emailed my friend right before writing this yesterday, and about an hour later, got a response back. He wasn’t upset at all. He’s just a guy. In general, guys don’t write back to say, “Hey, that’s okay, don’t sweat it,” if you write them something that might possibly offend them; usually, it’s women who do that. And it’s really typical for us to go a few weeks between e-mails, so he wasn’t upset or anything, it was just a typical cycle for us. He’s a great friend, I’ve known him for fourteen years now, and he knows exactly what he’s getting into when he asks me a question. So I just wanted to get out here and defend his honor. He didn’t do anything wrong at all.
Wes – regarding the why I shouldn’t be married – I can only speak for me. I think there are people who do well hitching themselves to someone else’s wagon, but I’m not one of those people. I like my independence too much, so I don’t want to be lead, but I don’t necessarily like leading someone else’s wagon, either. So I put whoever I’m with in an impossible situation; I have to do everything for myself, but then I get exhausted and resentful that I’m doing everything.
Also, I have this tendency in a relationship to become totally absorbed in the other person’s happiness, to the point where I will ignore my own. That’s another reason why I’m not a good candidate for marriage.
That said, I can’t say why marriage would or wouldn’t be good for other people. I think there are a whole host of good reasons why someone would or wouldn’t be, but that’s for them to figure out. All I know is me.
March 4th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Ya know, I sat here reading the newer comments, and I had a thought — and I could be TOTALLY off-base here — but with your new outlook and “no stress” happy days, was maybe… BIG GIANT MAYBE a part of your old self LOOKING for something to feel guilty about? Just a thought…
Glad to know he wasn’t upset!
March 4th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
@Brenda, our old ways are insidious aren’t they? They find new things to latch onto that gives you the same old feeling. Not saying this is what is happening for/to Lucy.
Anyway, interesting insight.
I’ll add myself into not the marrying kind. Or the me right now. When it comes down to it I’m just not ready to be open all the time. I can do spurts of Take Me As I Am. I’d be during the person I marry a disservice if I think getting married would be the solution to facing the fear. I refuse to chance that it won’t work. You just don’t marry someone to do an experiment.
March 4th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
There are some amazing comments on here, and I really don’t know anything else to add, but one thing has been running through my head from the moment I read the line about the acts of service being part of your male component. I’m sorry this is random, but it’s running on repeat and I have to ask.
Why are acts of service male? Why is fixing things a male aspect? Watching the women in my life who are amazing and capable and strong, the women I want to grow up to be, I see that they’re fixers. There’s a problem in my life? I go brainstorm with my mom. 95% of the women I know show we care by doing things for those around us, even if it’s making a cup of tea.
I see the fixer trait in almost all of the people I know, regardless of gender. I think it’s a human trait, really. We listen, we console/commiserate, we fix. For some reason, classifying it as a male trait feels like it’s robbing women of their innate capability and strength…and even their creativity. Embrace that aspect of yourself, definitely. It’s not male or female, it’s just Lucy. I can’t think of any person I know who will go to a friend with a problem and expect said friend to not offer any advice at all. Sometimes the best advice can actually come from the person with the issue, and the listener can help them figure it out by asking the right questions. It’s still helping them fix a situation, right? Or am I just going crazy over here?
March 4th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
I apologize if that post came across as cranky. It was more confused than anything else. It wasn’t meant to be cranky, I promise. =/
Note to self: No more writing responses while still fried from taking midterms.
March 4th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Sierra – When I’ve heard this attribute given to males, it’s more that this is their reaction. Not a measure of “if” they can fix things or who capable they are of fixing things. Just that upon hearing someone whine/complain/vent their reaction is to fix. When that is not always what is needed. And obviously, that is a generalization that does not apply to all.
Women are just as capable (I’d argue moreso in some cases) of fixing things. But we also have more of a natural reaction to console and commisserate and not immediately jumping into action.
I think. LOL!
March 4th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Sierra I agree it is not just a male/female thing. However, I think many women have shared the experience of a man who did not really want to listen to the whole female rant about how-bad-my-day-was, so the male jumps in with his I-can-fix-this advice when really the female just wants him to shut-up-and-listen. That is where men get the bad rap. Females want to hear the whole story and sooth away the troubles and relate their own story and then eat some chocolate.
March 4th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
@Nancy and Terrio – Thank you for clarifying that. It makes a lot more sense now.
I think I’ve been lucky with the guys in my life, cause most of them (including my boyfriend) have that response that Nancy mentions – hear the whole story, sooth away the troubles, relate their story, and then eat chocolate. It probably skewed my perspective a bit.
March 4th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
I’ve had bad experience being honest about my opinion about the men in my friends life. Cause the other betties who have talked about you saying what a jerk, and then she gets back with him, yep. yep. yep.
I hate giving advice, because I’m the “boring, responsible, single freak” among my friends, and now, with most all of my friends, married with children, I don’t feel like I have anything to give advice about. My life experience doesn’t mesh with theirs anymore. which is a little weird.
I’m a great listener, and I will support my friends come hell or high water. I think people need to listen to their own instincts.
March 4th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
re: the male/female thing: I think, in general, and this does not obviously apply to everyone, that the male energy is a fix-it energy, and the female energy is an empathetic energy. Both sexes can do and be great at either or both, but it’s an energy thing. Women can be great fixers and men can be great empathizers, but I see the fix-it thing is an inherently masculine energy, and the empathizing thing as an inherently feminine energy. Sort of like how in Spanish, nouns have gender? So, I’m just saying – I tap into my masculine energy, and I fix. As do many of the women in my life, and a big chunk of you lovely Betties here. But sometimes, people just want to be heard – theyr’e looking for the feminine energy, the empathizing, and I’m being all male about it. So that’s how I meant that, just genderizing the energy.
re: the old Lucy trying to feel guilty about something – good call. Absolutely right, it’s an old knee jerk thing. And obviously unwarranted, because my friend was fine the whole time. So, definitely a good lesson. Old habits die hard.
Marly, I’m so happy for you. And R. is a catch. We all love him. Good for you that you got something that works for you. Don’t feel like you have to shrink because of it. Yay for you!
March 4th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Sometimes I think that the advice we give to others is actually our subconscious giving US message we need to hear *ourselves*.
For a happy 10 minutes on putting relationships in perspective, highly recommend googling “Madea Relationship Advice” on You tube. It’s brightened my day immeasurably!
x Piper
March 4th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Piper. Thank you for that. I saw that play and forgot how funny that part was. “God send me worst. Bless me with worst.”
March 4th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
OMG, just watched Madea! Brilliant! Love it!
March 4th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
@Lucy – I really like the way you explain it, about the energy and everything. It makes a lot of sense your way, and the other two lovely Betties who expounded helped a lot, too. Getting all confused is apparently what comes from having a professor at one point who liked to draw very definite gender lines, not always giving women the credit they deserve. And it was a female professor, too. Now I’m always thrown off when people term things male or female traits. Thanks for your patience.
I’m sorry for the spazzing.
March 4th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
@BettyClawed: I am so sorry you had to go through that awful relationship. I’m sure you already know this, but you are lovely and clever and PLENTY of men and/or women would be thrilled to look at you twice. It is in fact the loser ex’s sorry a&& that will end up alone and hopefully with a bad case of herpes.
Well, now that I got that off my chest (I swear I want to *smack* whoever that horrid boyfriend was), here’s my deal with marriageability, which I can’t even spell.
As an independence-addict who even enjoyed the long silent morning drives to Saturday grad school, I was terrified that I just could not be married. That it was something I’m incapable of, like riding a two-wheeler or running a four minute mile (or an eight minute mile). I’m an analyzer and a researcher and a worrier. I was fretting myself to pieces. I lost a bunch of weight which call anxiety-pounds during my engagement, so I look spectacularly slim in the pictures.
The thing is, I’m happy. I’m better as part of this than I was alone. I have my space, my time, my thoughts. I have a friend, lover, and partner in crime now as well (yes they are all three the same guy, don’t be a smart ass like me).
That’s my story. I look forward to coming home. He makes me feel calm somehow. I’m no less fierce, no less *me*. It surprised me, and I don’t talk about it because it’s a very Smug Married thing to say and I detest smugness (especially those effortlessly thin people with the metabolism of whippets who say “Oh i can eat whatever I want”).
I hope whatever you choose for your life works out as surprisingly joyously as mine has.
And I love the Betties and all their comments. You always make me smile.
March 4th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Oh – another thing I meant to comment on – I never meant to associate acts of service as a male thing, although accidentally, I did. I’m an “acts of service” person in the love languages thing – I think talk is cheap, and I show my love by doing for the people I care for. It also means, that’s what sends a message to me – I don’t want anyone to tell me they love me. Show me. Act like it. That’s just me, not male. I was unclear about that; my bad.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
off topic – Just checked the Betty List and we now have Fake Aunt Betty…wonder who that is
)
Advice is the best and worst thing about having people in your life. It’s so hard to not give when asked, even if you know you might be walking into a mine field. When you love someone it’s hard to NOT give advice. I’m a fixer too, and have a very difficult time not fixing when asked (sometimes even when I’m not asked). I’m working on it, but…..
March 4th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Lora said:
He makes me feel calm somehow.
This reminds me of WELCOME TO TEMPTATION when Phin would have a rough day and drive out to the farm to tell Sophie about it and then he’d feel calm and right again. Kudos to you on finding that. If I could find that, I might change my non-marrying kind ways.
Lucy – I’m so with you on the “show me” thing. My ex must have said the words a million times. They had no meaning because there was never any actions to back them up. I don’t say the words so easy, but I’ll bend over backwards for the people I love. That’s how I show that I love someone.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
@ Marley (& R.)
Sing to the roof tops, I AM HAPPY, WE ARE HAPPY. Pretty sure they already know how happy you are. Be true to yourself. Rejoice in your marriage – sounds like you have a great marriage. A guy who reads/listens to Jenny Crusie. Next road trip – DLD & AATHM
My aunt had 7 husbands – me, one, a good one who knows when the phone rings it is often someone asking for advise. Do I give it – yah. Hey, they asked. It is only my opinion, not written in stone that they must follow it. Give yourselves some slack. People will follow their own path even if it is not great.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:08 pm
CHRIS FTW!!
My bff K always says that when women have a crap day they just want their mate to respond with, “Gee, honey that sucks. Let me get you a steak.” I find this approach works really well for my hubbin, too.
I’m a definite fixer. I wonder if that’s because it’s easier to muck shit out of someone else’s stalls? Cuz lord knows my stalls, they overfloweth and I got *NO* shovel, baby, just a hand trowel.
March 4th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
@Crash Test Betty-a few years ago I explained to my husband that I’ll I’m really looking for when I tell him about something that’s bothering me is for him to say, “My poor baby! I love you! You’re beautiful!” He’s said it to me ever since, and it makes me smile every time!
March 5th, 2010 at 12:03 am
@ Apple Betty – LOL! See, women aren’t a mystery… our needs are very simple in their complexity
March 5th, 2010 at 12:40 am
@Lucy – thank you. I’m so glad things are good with your friend. @Camm – thank you, too.
@Shangrilla – the “My poor baby! I love you! You’re beautiful!” is brilliant. I would love that. Sometimes, you have to ask for what you need.
March 5th, 2010 at 4:09 am
(-: I have absolutely no qualms about giving advice. If I think I might have gone a little overboard, I’ll follow up with a “this is not me telling you what to do, this is just me saying I care about you.” ‘Cuz basically, giving advice is how I show interest in people (-:. Family curse . . . .
But if I expect someone to follow the advice, then I’m in the wrong. Advice is free in this case, and a person often gets what s/he paid for.
Glad it all turned out all right in the end!
March 5th, 2010 at 10:30 am
@DivaBetty Thanks
He’s actually getting married and applying to grad schools (weirdly our moms stayed friends through a women’s volunteer group) but at least one phd program refused him because he acted like an arrogant jerk (info from a friend in that program).
Wheras I have awesome cat, live in an awesome city he would never have considered, and have a much more awesome boyfriend who constantly tells me that I can do anything I want, makes me laugh, and loves that I have a close group of male friends from my hometown. Life definitely is going way better for me in my opinion
March 5th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
@lucy You said
“Also, I have this tendency in a relationship to become totally absorbed in the other person’s happiness, to the point where I will ignore my own. That’s another reason why I’m not a good candidate for marriage.”
I think what you are doing with this blog and with Dr. Susan is going to change this tendency. I’m sure this is something that you see as a part of your unalterable makeup- but I see this as part of Old Lucy. She was a people pleaser. You are not. I think you are wise to wait until you have made it through this emotional journey before you explore relationships. However, in no way do I think you will ever go back to being the Old Lucy that puts others happiness before her own. You’ve already changed from that person, there is no going back now. Old Lucy is gone, gone, gone…
Having said that- remember a while back when you talked about how thinking makes it so? Thinking that you are the kind of person that could never get married again is making it so. Personally, I don’t care if you ever get married. Live blissfully with Jenny forever. Whatever. But stunting your personal growth by saying over and over, “I am better alone. I can’t get married. Because of this and this and this” is going to be a problem at some point. It’s going to stall you. Because you’re working on this and this and this. What happens when you’ve worked through it? Then you’ve convinced yourself that you can’t be in a relationship for no reason.
And that’s EXACTLY the moment that Colin Firth will show up at your door with a handful of daisies, begging you to run away with him. But you CAN’T, because then you might put Colin Firth’s happiness in front of your own, even though you aren’t the kind of person who would do that sort of thing any more.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the New Lucy wouldn’t want to get stuck in an emotional rut like that.
Okay- it might not happen exactly like that… but you get my point, right?
March 5th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Neat thoughts, Uncommon, and I do get your point. But, just to be difficult, I’m going to throw this out –
a) I never said I wouldn’t run off with Colin Firth, just that I wouldn’t MARRY him
and
b) why is marriage the ultimate fulfillment of my personal growth?
That said, you are right – there’s a lot of self-protection in these thoughts. But right now, I think that’s what I need. I think, in order to sleep at night, I need to believe not only that I will never be married again – which I think is a fine, healthy way to go – but that I will never be in a relationship again – which is where I start to get in the weeds.
I really think I’m in a good place with the marriage thing. There’s no need for me to ever get married again. I have my kids, they have a father who loves them, we’re both going to support and care for them – we are a family. We’re not married, but we’re still a family. I think marriage is about family. I see no reason to get married, for me, if not to support that, and my family’s fine without me being legally tethered to anyone else, ever.
That said, I’m mixing things here. There could be a relationship in my future, and that’s where your points about my happiness being all folded up in someone else’s happiness are on very solid ground. If something good comes my way, am I going to bat it away just because I think I’m not good at it? Probably not. But right now, the idea gives me hives and since there’s no one in my life with relationship potential, I’m giving myself a pass. If I ever do meet anyone, I’ll reconsider then. But until that day comes, if it comes, I’m just going to sit here in my corner and live in a blissful world where I belong to me, and no one else, forever.
March 5th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
@lucy
That’s my point exactly. I don’t think you need to get married. I don’t think it’s essential to your growth. In fact- I think NOT being married is best for many people. It just seemed that you had cut off that possibility (or the relationship possibility) completely because of who you used to be, not who you are now.
I think it is essential to your growth that you don’t tell yourself you can’t do something because of things you used to do but don’t do anymore. Whether it’s about relationships or anything else. That’s the short winded version of my long-winded comment. I should have just said that and moved on…
I wish nothing more for you than finding your own bliss- however you get there. Sometimes protecting yourself until you are ready to face certain demons is essential to the process. So I’ll stop harassing you now.
March 5th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
No, don’t stop harrassing me, it’s really valuable insight.
And you’re right. I’ll keep it in mind…
March 5th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
I never liked the idea of marriage because I was (and am) a very happy only child who could not bear the thought of having to share all her stuff. I also believed that true love was a myth, and most people just compromised their ideals in marriage in order to have companionship, and as I hate compromise, it was another reason to believe marriage was not for me.
Then I met the world’s most perfect man. So perfect he could have been tailor-made for me, with no compromise on my wish list, which was a bit of a shocker. Even more shocking, he appeared to be equally besotted with me. And all of a sudden, I found I actually really wanted to share all my stuff, my favorite toys and everything.
And obviously, it didn’t work out, because the gods hadn’t read the right movie scripts, but the point is this: I learned that I can’t rule anything out just because I firmly believe that I know myself better than anyone. There are an awful lot of people out there, and an awful lot of crazy stuff could happen. So I’m not ruling anything out any more. Except perhaps giving up wine. That’s definitely never going to happen.
March 5th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Yes, I’m with Uncommon Betty: not that anyone needs to get married (I’m not and never have been), but that it’s undesirable to put that in the “I can’t” category. It’s just unscientific: NO ONE has personal experience of enough different marriage partners and situations to say that they can’t do marriage. Their sample size is, necessarily too small (btw, this is a narrative pet peeve of mine – all the men or women who decide that, based on a small number of experiences, the other sex is greedy or untrustworthy or incompatible, or that they’re bad at relationships). Learn something, but don’t extrapolate to infinity.
And I agree that marriage is about family – but not that it’s necessarily about child-rearing. I know a great many people who have decided to be married when there was no possibility of children, for whatever reason – it’s an expression of trust and permanence. I always think it’s sad when people allow themselves to decide against soberly and advisedly committing themselves to marriage, even though they consider themselves committed to their partner.
I’ve never found such a partner – and I’m fine. I don’t need anyone to make my life work – but if I were to find someone who would make it more joyful, I’d want to celebrate that in front of God and everybody. Of course, then I would need to get rid of some stuff – it’s hard to imagine a partner who would willingly share space with all the stuff. The books and cookware, though, are pretty non-negotiable.
March 5th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Shangrila/Apple Betty !
I’m taking that – “My Poor Baby! I love you. You are beautiful!”
Of course, I will have to reciprocate with “Oh Sweetie, I love you. You are soooo good looking.” Then we will have a big laugh.
@ Lucy – never rule anything out, something so wonderful, so unexpected may be around the corner one day.
Same goes for everyone…you never know when that unexpected fabulous wonderful ……….. will be around the corner, just waiting for us.
March 6th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Coming in very very late to this, one point I don’t think I saw above is this:
Anyone who can be talked out of marrying someone should be.
Not because there’s something wrong with being married, but because deciding to become a couple should be such a profoundly life-altering choice that the decision, once made, cannot be unmade. It’s got to be one of those things that you know you want in spite of all of the problems that will come with the decision. (Like having a child–I wish there was this sort of litmus test for having a kid.) If someone isn’t committed enough to that decision, if it’s all rational debate internally and not an absolute need, and if they can be talked out of it, then the commitment they would have needed to make it last wasn’t there. (yet)
on offering advice:
That’s a gift you have there. Some people sing, some people bake, some people bring casseroles over to houses after funerals and stay and clean up, some people play bagpipes, some people listen, some people tell stories, and some people fix things where they can. We can’t all do everything. We need people who listen and offer the hard advice we don’t always want to hear. It’s a powerful, polka-dotted, gift.