The Writewell Academy is an online school for writers. Under the tutelage of bestselling authors Jenny Crusie and Lani Diane Rich, you’ll learn the skills and craft you need to make your writing shine.

This short sample video introduces you to the Writewell Academy program. It gives a brief overview of the classes, let’s you experience the lecture format to make sure that Lani and Jenny’s voice don’t give you seizures. For more information, visit WritewellAcademy.com!

Dana Wiley is having a very, very bad day.

It starts when she realizes she never should have let her deep-seated fear of marriage cause her to leave the love of her life, Nick Maybe, at the altar. Then, she discovers that her old nemesis, Melanie Biggs, is after her winery. To save her business, she’s forced to go to Manhattan to ask her eccentric mother, Babs Wiley McGregor, for help. When she gets there, she discovers that Nick moonlights for Babs, doing odd favors for her rich friends. Now Dana can’t turn around without bumping into him.

Or kissing him. Old habits die hard.

Then Babs is kidnapped, and a rare, valuable, stinky and flightless green parrot is the ransom. Now Dana must work with Nick to find the bird and save her mother, dealing with bumbling kidnappers, a rapscallion bird thief, the buxom Melanie who’s bent on taking more than the winery, and a strangely ominous wildlife conservation representative. All the while fighting her desperate love for the one man she knows she can’t ever have again…

… unless, just maybe, she can.

Now, I know not everyone uses B&N or Amazon… if you need something to run on your Not-Nook-or-Kindle, e-mail me at lucy@lucymarch.com, and I’ll do what I can to get you something that will work for you.

In the meantime, thanks so much, and look for the announcement of my next Lani Diane Rich re-release, The Comeback Kiss.

The other day, Crusie and I were out running around. It got to about two in the afternoon, and I started yawning.

“I always get tired every day, about this time,” I said. “Right at 2pm.”

“Yeah, for me it hits at three,” Jenny said.

“I know. I must need more protein or something.” Yawn. “The Spanish have it right. Siesta. That’s where it’s at.”

Turns out, the Spanish do have it right, and I don’t need more protein. What I need is a nap.

From MindBodyGreen.com, an infographic (I know this is a trend, but I’m kind of loving it) that explains why napping is so important. Some included information:

• Most mammals sleep during the day; humans have fought their natural patterns to sleep in one long shift. One of our natural periods of sleepiness: 1-3 pm.
• Siesta cultures have a lower rate of coronary heart disease; one study showed that napping 3x a week reduced that risk in the sample population by 37%.
• The Siesta, while named by the Spanish, actually has Islamic origins.
• Napping improves alertness and can help you fall asleep faster at night, and sleep through better.

So, it turns out there’s nothing wrong with me. My body was trying to tell me that I needed something, and I ignored it. Someday, I will learn.

In the meantime, I’m instituting Siesta around here.

Amazon | Barnes and Noble | Powell’s | Target

“Chick lit embraces the supernatural in this sweet, funny, and implausible tale of self-discovery, friendship, and trust…It’s the down-to-earth humor and humanity of a fiercely loyal and likable clique of smalltowners who’ll keep new fans waiting for March’s next trick.” – Publishers Weekly

“Filled with surprising twists and exciting turns, March’s debut is positively magical.” –Booklist

“Readers will find themselves charmed by the quirky inhabitants of Nodaway Falls and the little bit of magic that comes their way in March’s novel…March’s story is original, funny and much more satisfying than the standard girl-meets-boy story.” - Kirkus

“Magic, mayhem and love are at the center of March’s latest novel. This contemporary tale, a blend of witty dialog, quirky characters and strong storytelling, is one delightful read.” – Romantic Times

Today’s the day, and here are all the ways you guys can help get the word out:

• Link to this page from your Twitter, Facebook, and Google + pages, or your blogs.
• Tell people about the book.
• Buy (if you haven’t already) from any one of the booksellers listed above, or your local favorite bookstore.
• Review the book on Amazon or B&N, or your blog.

Thanks to you all for your support and enouragement!

This is the sixth in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Most writers have discovery methods, techniques they use to brainstorm their stories and keep them in the world of the book. The Three Goddesses favor soundtracks and collage, and today’s topic is collage. (Click on the images to see them full size.)

Jenny: Collage is basically cut and pasting your notes for the book in picture form. It’s a way to get past words, which we’re already using a lot of to write the book, and go to images and objects that evoke the tone and spirit of the book, the same way soundtracks do. In fact, collages with soundtracks can be lifesavers for novelists.

Lani: I’d never heard of collaging for books until Jenny talked about it. Jenny, when did you start collaging for your books?

Jenny: The first book I made a collage for was a fairly simple one for Bet Me, but that was after the book was done.

Lani: Why did you do it after it was done?

Jenny: I collaged for the copy edit which was a huge help in balancing all the stuff that was in there. I’d been looking at those words for so long I couldn’t see them any more (another reason you always need an editor) but doing the book in pictures helped me see the things I intuitively made bigger or smaller in the context of the story.

Lani: What made you think of collaging?

Jenny: I have no idea. I had a shadow box and I just started sticking things in it, trying to see the book. What was the first one you did?

Krissie: When I was about twenty I did a scrapbook of pictures that were evocative to me. Mixed words with photos and stuff. So that was what I thought of when I did my first book collage. I had this historical and I was having trouble getting into it so I cut out photos that made me think of the book. but it was much too literal. It ended up just pasting pretty pictures on poster board.

Jenny: Sometimes literal is good. Helps you remember what things look like in the story.

Krissie: But then I went to a seminar Jill Barnett did, and she used words as well. Which made a huge difference. My collages will be examples of collages that didn’t work, which I think is interesting.

Jenny: Well, your books work so your collages must.

Krissie: I did love the stuff we did for Fairy Tale Lies.

Jenny: I love your collages for Fairy Tale Lies.

Krissie: I think doing collages on scrapbook-size pages is easier for me.

Lani: For me, too. I struggle with the big posterboard.

Jenny: I’d never thought of it, but once I saw yours and Lani’s for Fairy Tale Lies, scrapbook pages seemed obvious. Although I need the big posterboard. But I think we collage for different effects. I need to see the book as a whole because I am not a good storyteller. You both seemed to be collaging for individual scenes, characters, details.

Lani: You said you need it for the big picture, which you lose. I need it for the smaller parts, because I’m usually pulled way out to big picture.

Krissie: Jill Barnett uses those science project triptych boards. And the left side is the opening act, the middle is act two, and the right is the closing act. At least, that’s what I think she did.

Jenny: Alesia had a collage for a book in her Atlantis series that was just a box with about half a dozen things that were crucial to her story. It was simple and beautiful and all she had to do was look at it and go back to Atlantis.

Lani: My first collage was for The Fortune Quilt. I made what I call “The Magic Shelf.” Which sounds like I’m talking about boobs, but I’m not. I put up a shelf with a ribbon board, and put objects from the book on the shelf, and pictures and a map of the town on the ribbon board. It was really effective, and it’s how I found my way into collage. Worked way better than I thought it would; I was very skeptical at first about collage.

Jenny: That’s a good way to get started. Lots of flexibility, no craft time.

Krissie: Collage has yet to give me anything, but I’m less visual than you two. It’s fun to cut out pictures and it’s a good excuse to buy magazines but I haven’t made a connection. Except with Fairy Tale Lies. I think I have trouble claiming collage.

Lani: What I find from teaching my Discovery classes is that it’s the students who are skeptical about something – either collage or soundtrack – who end up getting the most out of it. Something about forcing yourself past a barrier that breaks things open, I think.

Jenny: I think when you’re afraid of a process, it’s because you subconsciously know its power. And visuals have a lot of power. They can really change a book.

Lani: Yeah, there’s something to pushing past that resistance.

Krissie: Maybe I hear mean art teachers in my head. It seems more like an assignment.

Jenny: Krissie, it may be because the story is so complete in your head that you don’t need collage. You really are a born storyteller. I’m not, so I really need collage. Detailed collage.

Krissie: No, my story isn’t complete, but it tends to evolve organically. It just flows. I like the idea of Alesia’s.

Lani: You did really great with Fairy Tale Lies, Krissie. And you seemed to get a lot out of it.

Jenny: Yeah, you had fun with the FTL collage. You loved that intricate carriage sticker you got. And your pages were wonderful.

Krissie: Yes, I did.

Jenny: There was distinct vibe to the pages you did. The same with Lani’s ALNM pages. I think if you pinned all those pages to the wall, you’d have that big collage you’re afraid of.

Lani: I find that I need different things for different books. The scrapbook pages worked wonders for A Little Night Magic; I had a lot of fun with that. Plus, I love going to the paper aisle in the hobby store and just picking out what speaks to me about the book. So for me, sometimes I do it digitally, sometimes with a shelf and a ribbon board, sometimes with a full posterboard. It just kind of depends on the book. Same way my process will vary, so will the collage.

Jenny: Exactly. Whatever works visually to put you into the book.

Krissie: I met someone in NY (at Lani’s old chapter) who did scrapbook collages and then reduced them on her color copier so she could carry them around in a purse-sized notebook. For inspiration.

Jenny: Love that idea.

Lani: I used a digital collage for ALNM as my computer desktop for a while. There’s something about taking that time to focus on the book in a different way that works, too.

Krissie: I need to pull photos and pictures into Scrivener. I know it’s possible. That would be a start. I do have corkboard with evocative photos on it.

Lani: Scrivener’s great for that; and there are a number of places online where you can gather pictures together and the like. You can stretch the idea of “collage” until it’s something that works for you. Not everyone is the glue-and-ribbons type.

Jenny: I did both a digital and a cut-and-paste collage for MTT, and I loved the digital collage, it was beautiful, but it did absolutely nothing for me for the book.

Jenny: The cut and paste one, though, was exactly right, a huge help.

Krissie: Well, you’re an actual hands-on artist.

Jenny: I think the big thing is thinking in images and objects instead of in words. We associate words with work, so cut and paste is play.

Lani: Collage can be as simple as a corkboard. I find that I need it to get a visual sense of the world, which is usually where I’m lacking. It opens up a different layer of your creativity.

Jenny: I think a small corkboard may be the best way to get into collage. Just pin the stuff up.

Krissie: I do like the corkboard. It’s less threatening. I think I have issues.

Jenny: LOL. Another set of issues. Hey, without our issues, we would not have become writers.

Krissie: So true.

Lani: You judge yourself too much, Krissie. Whatever works, do that, and don’t worry about how other people do it.

Krissie: Do I? maybe.

Jenny: Yes, you do.

Krissie: I think I want to get it right because I’m always looking for community. I want to share it.

Jenny: For me, it’s the world of the book. I can’t grasp the big picture without the collage, especially since I’m not a visual writer. Bob used to say that he couldn’t see the details, so he did spreadsheets, and I couldn’t see the big picture so I did collages like the one for Wild Ride that pulled all the little details I was obsessed with into one big whole. I’m wondering if people who need help on the details do scrapbook collages instead of big ones.

Lani: I find that soundtrack helps me connect with emotions and relationships, and collage helps me connect with a visual sense of the world. The style, the aesthetic.

Jenny: I agree. The two together give me a complete non-verbal picture of the story. I also find that collaging can help me see what I’m blind to in the text. I did this huge elaborate collage for You Again about eight years ago. Beautiful thing. The book was going nowhere.

Jenny When I went back to it last month, I took a good look at it and realized the heroine wasn’t front and center. I’d been all caught up in doing an Agatha Christie homage instead of starting where I always start, with the heroine. Once I made myself think about the heroine and paste her in the middle of the collage, everything else fell into place. It’s using different brain paths.

Krissie: I don’t know if I’m bad on the details. I’ll forget someone’s eye color, of course.

Lani: It helps me find things I didn’t know I was looking for. Flipping through magazines, or going through the paper crafts aisle and picking out the, “Yes!” helps me find what works. There’s that element of, “Oh, hi!” from flipping through things that might bring surprises that really helps me the most, because it’s stumbling across the stuff I didn’t know to look for. And then I realize, “Hey, that’s the book!”

Jenny: Right. That “I need that” reaction. I saw a picture of a couch in an art magazine and tore it out for Maybe This Time, not knowing what it was about. Then it turned out to be Dennis’s couch, which is a major plot point. Trust the instinct.

Lani: It also gets me away from the blank page, see things from a different angle. It helps open everything up for me.

Krissie: What do you think of when you collage? Do you decide to do someone’s house? Or work on a character? I just pasted up pictures that made me think of the book. I’ve seen Barbara Samuel’s collages and you always know exactly what book they come from. Don’t know if she still does them.

Jenny: Krissie, the collage for You Again is a house because it’s a House Book. A bunch of people trapped in an old house and a murder takes place . . . they never get out of the house.

Krissie: I love your threeD collages. Maybe that would help me, trying 3D.

Lani: I’ve always wanted to do a map collage; a collage with a map of the town for the background. Still haven’t done that, but I want to. One of these books…
Jenny does an amazing amount of construction. I loved the one she did for Dogs & Goddesses. I don’t have that kind of dedication. Or patience.

Jenny: Oh, the step temple.

Jenny:Yeah. I get manic. Well, hypomanic here. OTOH, that’s how the books get written, manic stage, so the mania of the collages is just part of that. Three-D is fun for me because it gives me another dimension for emphasis. What’s closer? What’s background? But I’m kind of obsessive about collages, so don’t go by that.

Krissie: Yup. We need that obsessive, driven state of mind to get the books done. It’s hard to be a writer and be mentally balanced. It’s an unbalanced profession. I guess one needs to look for balance in the rest of one’s life.

Jenny: I know the next half dozen books I’m going to be doing, so as I find stuff that chimes for that book, I put it in a box. And then at some point I make the foam core background and keep that around, too. So I have barely started collage boards for Fairy Tale Lies, for Stealing Nadine and Haunting Alice, for Rosie and Clare, and for the next three Liz books. Another reason why my office is so damn cluttered. Stinking collages.

Krissie: Are Rosie and Clare the writers?

Jenny: Right. The epistolary novel with Gaffney. So for Liz, I have four boards done all at the same time with the same pattern but in different colors, to symbolize the books and how Liz’s world changes. But this time I glued her smack in the middle on all of them. I do finally learn.

Krissie: That makes a lot of sense. My pictures are just random. I need to grab my placeholder and plop him and her in the middle and work my way out from that

Jenny: I think putting the protag in the middle takes care of a lot of things. The protag in the middle says “Everything else comes from this” and you arrange the rest of your story around her/him. Helps keep your focus.

Krissie: I think I’ll collage my Spanish book.

Jenny: Oooh, Spanish images will be so vivid. Did we lose Lani?

Lani: I’m here! Just fiddling in Pandora still.

Jenny: So music is much more your thing than collage (g)? I always feel as though I’m forcing collage on you two. “No, really, VISUALS.” And you just want to listen to music.

Lani: I’ve always worked better with soundtrack than collage, but I think I need collage more, so I make myself do it. I always enjoy it when I’m in it, but it doesn’t come as naturally to me.

Krissie: I think it’s a good thing to open myself up to. It taps other parts of my brain. I like it. I really like the veyr obvious idea of putting my place holder in the center.

Lani: No, I teach collage because I think it’s really important. I just understand all the people who say, “Oh, god, I’m gonna suck at this.”

Jenny: And I have to push myself to music. That’s interesting.

Krissie: You do? Have to push yourself to music?

Lani: I think people naturally gravitate one way or the other. Pushing yourself on the one you’re not as natural with helps a lot.

Jenny: I think that’s the bad-art-teacher effect. “I have no talent, I’m no artist.” Yet people who aren’t musicians choose music and assemble mix tapes and playlists which is just music collage.

Krissie: Well, I’m basically a music person. I play instruments, I used to sing, I spent my life going to concerts and working to support that habit. I’m an aural person.

Jenny: I’m visual. The way stuff looks is crucial to me. My first degree was in art.

Lani: I’m neither a musician nor an artist, but I respond to the emotion in music more than the visual side of things.

Krissie: Yes, mixtapes (and playlists) are music collage. I never thought of it that way.

Jenny: I can go for weeks without listening to music. I know, it’s sad.

Lani: No, it’s just you. Nothing wrong with being who you are.

Krissie: What about when you drive? That now my main place for music. Because I don’t like talking over music. I should use my iPod more when I’md doing dishes etc.

Jenny: If I remember my iPod, I listen, thanks to that thingy Krissie gave me that plugs it into the stereo.

Krissie: Get satelllie radio. No, don’t. It’s expensive (unless your car is already equipped).

Jenny: It was funny, I updated my iPod and somehow lost all my playlists and ended up listening to songs in alphabetical order. It was remarkably energizing.

Krissie: Get a new ipod, fill it and keep it in the car.

Jenny: It’s so old that it wouldn’t hold my entire catalog and when I tried to update it to put my playlists on, things went wonky.

Lani: Just don’t start the car with the iPod connected to the power. I can kill it.

Krissie: Really? Good to know.

Lani: These are the things you learn while working at the Apple store.

Jenny: Oh. I’ve always done that. I think my old iPod is so low tech, it doesn’t even notice the car. So COLLAGE.

Krissie: Okay, back to collage.

Jenny: This is really my thing, isn’t it? I dragged you into this.

Krissie: No, no. You didn’t get me started. Barbara and Jill did.

Jenny: I meant I dragged you into this chat. I’m torn between “follow your instincts and if you don’t want to do it, don’t” and “if you’re resisting it that much, you really should do it.”

Lani: No, it’s good. I think we’re all on the spectrum. You’re a natural with collage, and you make beautiful ones.

Krissie: I love the idea. It’s kind of like trying to have an orgasm (you knew I’d bring sex in, didn’t you?)

Jenny: Paper orgasms.

Krissie: You’d have paper orgasms, Crusie. I most definitely have music orgasms. TMI.

Lani: I’m a little resistant, but I push past it, and am a collage proselytizer. I make my students do collage, and the ones who resist the most get the most out of it, so I usually encourage people to try, especially if they think they’re going to hate it.

Krissie: I keep trying too hard and it’s always just out of reach. I’m someone who’d really ought to do it.

Jenny: So the next time you’re here, Krissie, we work on Fairy Tale Lies and collage again? Or are you guys finished with the collage work on that?

Krissie: Oh, hell no. I’ve got lots more collage work to do on it.

Lani: I can collage again. I need to revisit the material.

Krissie: Uh, is mine here? Or do you guys have it?

Lani: I have it, I think.

Jenny: I don’t. But I have pictures of your pages.

Krissie: Because god knows where it is. But I’m cleaning, I’m cleaning. The bedroom first. I’m making progress.

Lani: Wait a minute…

Krissie: It’ll turn up. It’s in a scrapbook, right?

Jenny: Ah. The big one I started is upstairs, but I don’t know where the scrapbook pages went. Oh, and I set up a Fairy Tale Lies wiki. Did you get the link? No idea if it’s going to be any help or not, but now you have everything on it that I had. I can put pictures of the collages in there so you can see them any time.

Krissie: I hate to tell you but I’m gonna collage tonight. It’s calling me.

Jenny: YAY! Krissie collages! That makes me happy.

Krissie: The Wiki looked incredibly cool. I wish my books were laid out like that. With that kind of outline I could sail through it. Or so it seems.

Jenny: You could probably collage an outline. You can definitely collage acts, I did that for an old version of You Again.

Lani: I have my pages, but not Krissie’s. I thought Krissie took her pages home with her?

Krissie: Yes, I probably did. I’m cleaning — they’ll turn up. I just haven’t seen them.

Jenny: I thought she did, too, but I can’t remember. Worse comes to worse, we collage again.

Krissie: And maybe discover something new. That happens when I occasionally lose pages. I rewrite and something even richer comes up. I loved those pages but maybe they were a rough draft.

Jenny: Exactly. Because we’re different people now than we were then. I’m really seeing that with the You Again collage, changing a lot of things, adding a lot of new stuff. Whereas Liz’s collage? Pretty much finished. Just put down the glue and finish the book, Crusie.

Lani: I have to collage again, anyway. It’s been a long time, and I need to reconnect with the material.

Jenny: I learn so much when I’m collaging. There’s so much discovery in the process.

Lani: There really is. It’s a great way to build up the energy to write.

Jenny: The bottom line for me is that I need both collage and soundtrack to nail the book for me outside the written word because I get so bogged down in words, editing and rewriting and trying to find the story, but with sound and pictures, it’s easy. It makes it play again.

Krissie: So Collage R Us.

Jenny: Collage R definitely us.

Krissie: I may want foamcore board. Or scrapbook pages. Who knows.

Jenny: You should live closer, I have a cabinet of foam core. I buy in bulk.

Lani: It’s great to be able to throw yourself into something creative, too. Gets those juices flowing.

Krissie: Yup. I’ll just play.

Jenny: That’s the key. Just think about your story and play, go by instinct. It’s all about instinct. And glue.

Lucy March’s A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin’s Press on January 31, 2012.

Kristina Douglas’s Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.

Jenny Crusie’s You Again and Lavender’s Blue will be out from St. Martin’s Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody’s guess.

This is the fifth in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Most writers have discovery methods, techniques they use to brainstorm their stories and keep them in the world of the book. The Three Goddesses favor soundtracks and collage, so these next two chats are on music and pictures. Today’s topic: Soundtracks.

Jenny: So let’s talk about brainstorming. You both use soundtracks for your books, right?

Lani: I start with the soundtrack, because listening to music and saying, “Yes,” or “No,” to a particular song helps me narrow down my story. It helps me know what I want out of it, when a particular song harmonizes.

Jenny: When you say “narrow down a story” do you mean plot? Or mood?

Lani: It can be anything. I’ll hear a line from a song that works and think of a plot point, but mostly, it’s tone. It keeps me on track during those early days when I tend to be all over the place.

Krissie: Yes on tone. Mood, tone, whatever.

Lani: It also really helps me when I’m feeling the story sag, to add new songs and cut old ones that aren’t working. As I get to know my book better, the soundtrack changes. It’s kind of an evolving, living thing.

Jenny: Do you pick songs for individual scenes, or for the book as a whole?

Krissie: I get plot points out of lyrics. Sometimes it will clarify characterization. Certain songs will really crystallize who a character is. Which got weird when I went through a spell of mainly listening to j-rock. No words that I knew. Not even fuckin’ sale.

Lani: Can be either. I’ll pick some songs to represent a character, a scene, a setting, a moment. It depends. I always pick a “credit roll” song, that happy ending song that keeps me connected to the happy ending I’m shooting for.

Krissie: Oh, I love that idea. I’ve had it happen, of course. But never consciously. There was a fleetwood Mac song for the end of my first series romance. “Back in the Highlife Again” or “Roll with it” by Stevie Windwood. That looks wrong. Oh, Winwood.

Jenny: I tend to do character themes. If I can find a song my character connects to, it helps me get into her head.

Lani: Music often plays a huge role in your books. I remember all the Dusty Springfield.

Jenny: Yeah, Dusty was huge in Welcome to Tempation because their mother had played Dusty all the time, so it was a connector.

Krissie: And Fleetwood Mac in Crazy for You.

Jenny: That was character again, it was what Nick used to seduce his dates.

Krissie: It’s really nice when a character can connect to music. Mine often do. I finish a draft and I often turn something up and dance.

Jenny: I don’t have any clear floor space down here to dance. I should do that, too.

Lani: I finish a draft and fall face-first into my desk. But that’s just me. I had characters dance to a Sam Cooke song that I had in my soundtrack; that was a fun scene.

Krissie: Must have been “You Send Me.”

Jenny: Terri Clark has a great song called “Easy on the Eyes” that goes “Easy on the eyes, hard on the heart,” and “if you told me some lies it would be like old times,” but the music is peppy and irresistible. I used that for Cash in Lavender’s Blue
.
Krissie: I had characters fuck to Sexual Healing.

Jenny: Oh, good, actually using a song in a scene. Let’s talk about that. What characters in what books to what songs and why?

Krissie: The heroine was doing a good job resisting the hero until “Sexual Healing” came on. Then she was lost.

Lani: The music is huge for discovery. I build a soundtrack and listen to it while doing the dishes, the laundry, knitting, driving… anything I can do kind of on auto-pilot. I make sure to think of the book while listening to it, and then the soundtrack bonds with the book, and any time I hear those songs – boom, back in that world.

Krissie: Let’s take turns to make it easier on Jenny.

Jenny: Let’s pick a topic to make it easier on Jenny. Discovery, character themes, actually using the music in a scene, and whole story themes. Does that sound good?

Krissie: Sure. I just told you how using a song in a scene worked for me. I had my 1930s couple dance to “I Can’t Get Started” (great song).

Jenny: Which book?

Krissie: But the “Sexual Healing” drove the action (so to speak).

Jenny: WHICH BOOK?

Krissie: HOUSEBOUND.

Jenny: Thank you. Do you want to start with Discovery since that comes first? Then move to characters which is a more focused kind of discovery?

Lani: Sure, that sounds good.

Krissie: In my romantic suspense there isn’t much time to listen to music. The heroine might think in terms of a song but they seldom get to turn on the radio. . . Sorry, I was already typing that. I’ll be good.

Jenny: LOL.

Krissie: You want me on discovery?

Jenny: So you use the music to build the world, Lani? Absolutely, Krissie.

Krissie: I’ll wait.

Lani: Songs have an incredibly strong associative power. When I was in college, I took a sound design course where the teacher told us we couldn’t use familiar songs. The idea was, if it was a very popular, overused song, people would already have associations with it, and it would muddy your soundtrack.

Jenny: Oh, yeah, I agree with that.

Lani: So, using that, I pick one or two songs I know, but not too well. They can’t already have associations. Then I listen to Pandora for the kinds of songs I’m looking for, and when I stumble across one that’s right, I buy it on iTunes and add it in.

Jenny: I use the iTunes Genius picks the same way.

Krissie: And yet I find a bunch of my music from soundtracks. Particularly those songs that play toward the end of a TV show. It’s usually reflecting some emotion that strikes a chord with what I’m writing.

Jenny: TV shows can be great for that. Joss Whedon was good at picking not-well-known artists and songs. That’s how I first found Michelle Branch.

Lani: Anyway, by using unfamiliar songs, I can “stick” them to the book easier, and then if I listen to it when I’m in Discovery or writing, it connects with the book world, and brings me right back in. The Carmina Burana is a great piece of music, but it’s so overused that it can only work ironically now. You have to be careful about what you use.

Jenny: The key for me is that the music puts me back in the book. But I’d never thought about the importance of unfamiliar songs for building a brand new world.

Lani: Anyway, now, whenever I hear a song from a soundtrack I’ve used – boom, back in that world. I never re-use music, either; if something belongs to a particular book, then its power is already used up. So I need to find fresh music each time.

Jenny: Yeah, Dusty always puts me back in WTT. Well, the Dusty songs I used there. I used her for D&G, too, but different songs. I recycle some. But never for characters, only for a particular mood for a particular kind of scene.

Lani: I used “Lady Magic” by Ben Taylor for D&G, and now it brings me right back whenever I hear it. I kind of love that. Shopping in a store and a song comes on, and you’re back in that space. It’s like visiting with an old friend.

Jenny: That always makes me think of Daisy in D&G, too.

Krissie: Hmmm. I reuse songs. I probably shouldn’t. But whe you’re writing a series it just makes sense.

Jenny: I recycle some. But never for characters, only for a particular mood for a particular kind of scene.

Krissie: Yes, recycle for mood.

Lani: No, you should do what works for you.

Jenny: Well, use again for a series, absolutely, Krissie. I’m reusing stuff through the four Liz books. But that’s the same world and the same characters.

Lani: Same world, same characters, you’re good. Krissie, you have a separate group of songs for sex scenes, right?

Krissie: Yes I most certainly do.

Jenny: Don’t we all?

Lani: I don’t. I have songs for that book, and that’s it. New sexy song for a new sexy book.

Krissie: The funny thing is, one of my favorites is completely embarrasing. But it does it for me.

Jenny: OOOOOH, TELL US.

Lani: Oh, I know that one. You played it for me on the ride to Columbus.

Krissie: No, not “Closer,” Though I do love that one.

Lani: Oh. Well, what’s the embarrassing one?

Krissie: “Closer” is the one that says “you let me penetrate you, you let me violate you … let me fuck you like an animal … your sex I can smell … you bring me closer to god.” That’s NOT the embarrassing one.

Jenny: Oh, good.

Krissie: It’s “Music of Passion” by Yanni. [hiding head in shame]

Jenny: Oh, THAT kind of embarrassing. Hey, my go-to song is from Sugababes. I’m not judging.

Krissie: But “Music of Passion” is soaring and lyrical. I use the Sugababes song too. You told me about it.

Lani: Yanni? Well… you know, if it works for you. Have no shame. Okay… I’m gonna go listen…

Jenny: I didn’t tell you about Yanni.

Krissie: It moves. It starts slow, and then it builds, and then falls back … Got the right dynamic.

Jenny: Must have been Lani with the secret Yanni stash. Like porn, only not.

Krissie: You or Lani did. We brainstormed sex soundtracks once. No, not the Yanni, the Sugababes song.

Jenny: Oh, yeah, I’m responsible for Sugababes. I remember that sex-song brainstorming session. As I remember, you both laughed at my picks.

Lani: I have no secret Yanni stash. I’m listening to it now, though.

Krissie: It just works.

Lani: I love iTunes. Hey, if it works, that’s awesome. And you know, it’s not bad.

Jenny: Ooooh. I’ll listen, too.

Lani: It’s “Reflections of Passion.”

Krissie: It’s romantic sex. Not raunchy sex. Because good sex is both romantic and raunchy or maybe great sex. Good sex can be either.

Jenny: (listening to Yanni) You know, that’s not the way my characters have sex. I wouldn’t have picked it for yours, either, Krissie.

Krissie: My characters have sex all sorts of ways. Usually by the end of the book they make love instead of fuck, and then the song works. Earlier on “Closer” is closer.

Jenny: Yeah, the Yanni song builds, but I keep seeing Ariel with the sea splashing against her rock. I think I need something with a heavier beat. More pounding.

Krissie: I think it came out before Ariel. But yeah, Yanni is an embarrassment. But I connect it with sex.

Lani: Which Sugababes song? I’m fascinated by the sex soundtrack.

Krissie: “Too Lost in You.”

Jenny: Lani, you don’t have sex scene soundtracks?

Lani: Nope; my soundtracks are for the book. I might have a song that represents the sex, but I don’t separate it out, and I don’t reuse. But that’s just me.

Krissie: Oh, “Night in My Veins” is a great one too (the Pretenders). Very Spike and Buffy.

Jenny: “Hallelujah” is another one for me. I know, weird. But it’s incredibly hot. “Layla.” Especially the acoustic. “Concrete and Clay.”

Krissie: Jesus. “Hallelujah”‘s a weeper. Can’t imagine that for sex.

Jenny: Slow intense sex? I can.

Krissie: I’m trying to remember the FM song that’s great for sex.

Jenny: He did a song about oral sex that’s hot, too. Hang on. “Light As the Breeze.”

Lani: Leonard Cohen?

Jenny: Yep.

Lani: Yes, “Light as the Breeze.” That’s sexy.

Krissie: That didn’t do it for me.

Jenny: Although I love KD Lang’s version of “Hallelujah” more, it’s not as hot.

Krissie: Interesting how we all react so differently to music.

Jenny: It is.

Lani: Well, it’s very individual.

Jenny: I think it’s reflective of how different our books are. What we’re drawn to as the juice of the story.

Lani: You have to find what works for you, what gets you in the zone of the book.

Krissie: Indeed. And what can stimulate the story

Jenny: The thing that says, “THIS is my story,” is the same thing that says, “And THIS is the song.” In fact, sometimes the song says it first. Tell Me Lies was essentially a novelization of “Thunder Road.” Funny how some of that stays with you long after the book is done. That’s when you know it was really powerful for you.

Lani: And you really have to listen to a lot of music, and wait for that, “That’s it!” moment. Once you assemble a handful of those, you’re set.

Jenny: “Some of Your Lovin” and “I Only Want To Be With You” are Welcome to Tempation songs forever.

Lani: “Wreck of the Day” by Anna Nalick is A Little Ray of Sunshine for me. Brings me right back.

Jenny: Yes. I use the music more specifically, too. Like songs that become connectors for people. “Hallelujah” for Liz and Vince. “Birdhouse in Your Soul” for Liz and Peri.

Lani: Yeah, you do. I remember you using “She” by Elvis Costello in Bet Me. You use music as very strong references within a story. Oh, and you used “What Love Can Do” by John Hiatt in Wild Ride. You really do that a lot.

Krissie: I started long ago with soundtracks. Made one for Night of the Phantom (1991) with a cassette mix.

Jenny: Wow, you were an early soundtracker. Yeah, I like using music in a scene.

Krissie: That’s because I was (and am) a music junkie.

Lani: Oh! Cassette mix tapes! I remember those!

Jenny: Music characterizes. It’s like the places your characters live, or the animals they have, or the friendships they make.

Lani: It really does. I don’t use it specifically as often, though. I always worry that if the reader doesn’t know the song, it’ll throw her out. For me, the music is all about reaching that tone, accessing the things that I love most about the book.

Jenny: Sometimes music just sticks to a book because of character and tone. There are three Pink Martini songs in Liz.

Krissie: Sometimes my songs are obvious and direct, sometimes they’re more subtle. For instance, for Night of the Phantom (available in Anne Stuart’s Out of Print Gems or whatever they call it) I used “Music of the Night” from Phantom of the Opera and “Beauty and the Beast” from Stevie Nicks (before the movie of B&B came out). Other times it’s just a line or the mood of the song.

Jenny: Overall tone then? Not individual moments?

Krissie: Individual moments as well.

Lani: Sometimes it’s individual moments. But for me, I use the soundtrack to keep my eye on the big picture. I can get lost in the moments as I’m writing; the soundtrack helps keep me grounded.

Krissie: Like in Housebound.

Lani: Soundtrack is for character, backstory, setting, mood. If there’s a song for individual moments (like Sam Cooke’s “Nothing Can Change My Love For You” in Crazy in Love) it’s pretty rare for me.

Jenny: For me, it’s mostly about the moment. I use the music to arc the character, too. Liz drives into town to “Bigger Windows” but she leaves to “Don’t Hold Me Down.”

Krissie: Oh, it wasn’t “You Send Me?” Good for you.

Jenny: Oh, the lesser-known song. That’s such a good point.

Lani: Nope, wasn’t “You Send Me.” I love Sam Cooke, and that’s good, but not my favorite.

Jenny: Also, too famous, right? Sam Cooke is the best.

Lani: A song that’s too well-known carries too much weight on it. “Carmina Burana,” “Stairway to Heaven,” “Born in the U.S.A.” They’re muddy songs, soundtrack-wise.

Krissie: I’m just remembering. Back in 1984, I had a sound track for Against the Wind. With the obvious song, plus a lot of Bruce Cockburn’s Stealing Fire CD. In fact, lemme tell you a story. I was trying to decide what to write. Should I work on something I knew would bring me money, or should I drop everything and write one more Ice book for free. And I got in the car, turned on the radio and “Lovers in a Dangerous Time” came on. I shrieked with glee. You don’t often get such an obvious answer from the universe. I use a lot of Warren Zevon, of course. For mercenaries and desperate people.

Jenny: I love it when that happens. Leap and the song will appear.

Krissie: You know, I don’t agree with you, Lani.

Lani: About what?

Krissie: If a song means something to you, like “Against the Wind,” then it works, whether it’s obvious or not. Same with “You Send Me.” Of course, the question is, do you name it or just hear it in your own head.

Jenny: I like the idea of kind of muddy songs. But if I have strong associations with a song, though, I can’t use it.

Lani: Right, for you. If it’s not already overused for you, and it still carries power, then it’s fine.

Krissie: I more often hear the songs but don’t name them. Jenny names them.

Jenny: I’ll never use “I Only Want To Be With You” again. It’s muddy with WTT. Or maybe “tagged” is a better word. Tagged with WTT.

Krissie: Yeah, my association with ATW is my book.

Lani: For me, some songs are too strongly associated with other things in my life, and I can’t use them. So, for soundtracks, it’s really about what works for you. For me, muddy songs carry other associations into my book, and that screws with me.

Krissie: Hmmm. Interesting. Don’t know if that happens with me.

Jenny: Same with names. Somebody on Argh suggested I call the You Again hero Adam. And it’s a good name but I can’t. It’s too strongly tagged. I think music is the same way.

Krissie: Oh, so true with names.

Lani: I had a soundtrack for A Little Night Magic, which I was writing during my divorce. At a certain point, those songs became more about my divorce, and I had to do a whole new soundtrack. That’s what I’m talking about.

Krissie: I can see that happening.

Jenny: Right. The tag has to be to the story, not to anything else. Although I suppose you can re-tag.

Lani: And well-known songs tend to bring those associations. If those associations work for your book, that’s fine, but it’s a danger. At least for me. I need new songs for a new book. You can re-tag; that’s what happened to my original ALNM soundtrack. But it takes a lot of persistence and effort, and I’m too lazy to re-tag a song.

Krissie: I love satellite radio for hearing new songs that get my brain going. I’ve picked up so much new stuff from Sirius.

Jenny: I tend to get my new stuff from the genius recommendations in iTunes and from TV and movies.

Lani: Krissie, absolutely. Satellite radio, Pandora, iTunes Genius – it’s wonderful how much access we have to new stuff.

Jenny: I’ve done key word searches in iTunes. That’s always interesting. “Ghost.”

Krissie: I listen to a couple of the diverse channels, the Spectrum and the Loft. I hear great stuff that can stimulate all sorts of plot and charcter ideas.

Lani: But I don’t listen to regular radio anymore, so I really depend on Pandora to find me new stuff.

Krissie: Though it’s hard to write down the name with I’m watching the road.

Jenny: I wrote down a bunch of stuff on an envelope on the way back from NJ. Then I couldn’t read the envelope.

Lani: Voice recordings. If I’m driving, I use my iPhone to record a voice memo.

Krissie: iTunes Genius doesn’t work for me because my taste is too broad. Same with Pandora. I listen to it for enjoyment (and they had an interesting Angel channel when I didn’t hav e iTunes on this computer) but they aren’t as diverse.

Jenny: And now iTunes Genius thinks I like Yanni.

Krissie: Heh heh heh.

Lani: Well, maybe you will like Yanni. And mimes. That’ll learn you to tease Krissie.

Jenny: You have to say this for her: she doesn’t allow public opinion to sway her. Yanni and mimes.

Krissie: You betcha. I have no shame.

Jenny: It’s interesting that as a story drifts and changes as you write it, the music has to change. I thought Liz was going to drive out of town to the same song she drove in on. But the book changed.

Lani: I love that she enters and leaves on two different songs. It’s a nice way of using music to get something across.

Jenny: I think so, too. They’re similar, but the focus is a little different. She’s angry driving in and thoughtful but happy driving out.

Lani: Diversity is really key; getting to songs that can access all the corners of your book. It’s a wonderful way to use music to tell the story.

Krissie: I’ve been lazy with soundtracks recently, since I’ve been writing series books.I think I need to do more books specific one instead of recycling.

Lani: I sometimes scour soundtracks that already exist. The soundtrack from 10 Things I Hate About You was good for the current book, and the song lists from Grey’s Anatomy work really well when I’m looking for something more emotional. Grey’s Anatomy song lists from the individual episodes get me a lot of music.

Krissie: Grey’s Anatomy has some great stuff.

Jenny: Life had some great music, but then they changed it for the DVD. Soundtracks help me so much. Well music in general helps when I get tense, but when I really get blocked, playing those songs and seeing the scenes they go with in my head really opens things up.

Lani: It helps for me to have a creative hobby I know really well – like knitting socks – to keep my active brain occupied while I listen. Soundtracks are great for discovering while doing chores like dishes and laundry, too.

Krissie: Here’s a question — do you actually listen to the soundtracks while you write? With words?

Jenny: If it’s a song that’s playing during the scene, yes. Just listening to the whole soundtrack of the book, no.

Lani: Yes, I listen to the songs while I write. Not always, and less now than before, but I usually do.

Jenny: That thinking-through-the-book time is when the soundtrack really helps.

Lani: I listen to the soundtrack over and over while I write, just shuffle it and repeat.

Krissie: Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don’t. As you know I’m addicted to High Focus so I switch over to that if I’m getting distracted.

Lani: I use High Focus, too! On occasion, when I’m really having trouble, I use that. I need something to block out the rest of the world, though, so I can go into my own space to write.

Jenny: I usually write in silence. I need to hear the words in my head. But if the music is actually in the scene, then it helps. It’s been helpful in the series, too, because when I find a song that’s going to be good in the later books, I put it in that books playlist. It’s another way of note-keeping for the sequels.

Lani: The soundtrack is my crutch the whole way through. And when I need new energy, usually about halfway through, I weed a little and add a little, and it really helps.

Krissie: I’ll tell you one danger of soundtracks. I used Richard Thompson for Nightfall almost exclusively. For other things as well. And I react so strongly to his music, so powerfully, that I wonder whether my emotional reaction to a scene I write is because I hear the music, and that the scene isn’t really that powerhouse a scene. I just sort of vibrate to RT, like to a tuning fork. He’s MY music.

Lani: Hmm, I’ve never worried about that before. Will now, though. Thanks.

Krissie: No, I don’t think it’s true, Lani. I just worry.

Jenny: Whoa. I hadn’t thought of that. Wait a minute. I don’t have anything called High Focus. What is it?

Lani: It’s a concentration audio by Kelly Howell/Brain Sync.

Krissie: I swear by High Focus. God, I love it. It’s supposed to get your brain waves moving in a certain way. At worst, it’s white noise that helps you concentrate.

Lani: It’s basically white noise, but it helps separate me from the rest of the world. Of course, my world is full of kids, so there’s a reason I need to separate.

Krissie: I’ve also found some other creative/concentration stuff on the internet that I like. My creative brain just clicks in when I put it on. I’ve probably been using it 15 years.

Lani: Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff out there that work with certain brain waves, and I’m not sure I buy it, but white noise/relaxation/classical music helps when I just need to clear my brain.

Jenny: It’s ten bucks on iTunes, but if you both like it, I’ll bite.

Krissie: Yup. Whether you buy the brain waves thing, at least it’s white noise.

Jenny: Ten bucks for white noise? I’ll pretend I believe in the brain waves.

Lani: It’s white noise that does voodoo to your brain waves.

Krissie: I use Increase Creativity too. I listen to them on a loop. You know how fast I write, and I use High Focus. Try it.

Jenny: Yes, ma’am, I will try it. Now tell me about the way you’ve used music in one specific book.

Krissie: Okay, On Thin Ice. It was years since I’d done an Ice book so I had a lot of new stuff. I used to hate “Roland the Headless Thompson Drummer,” but that song worked for On Thin Ice, since my hero is part mercenary. I listened to (don’t judge) “Sober” by Kelly clarkson, a great strong, mournful song, for my strong heroine. “Windows are Rolled Down” by Amos Lee was movement. I used a bit of Tom Waits, the obvious “I Hope That I Don’t Fall in Love With You,” and “Hold on.” Never used him before, but he fit with my world-weary hero. Tom Waits when he was world-weary, Richard Thompson when he was cynical.

Jenny: I was going to say, that’s a dark soundtrack, but that makes sense.

Krissie: You remember what I write, don’t you?

Jenny: I never thought of looking at a soundtrack as a compilation, but that really nails your book. Do you use mostly male artists since your books are so male-centric?

Krissie: I had Katy Perry and “Fireworks,” definitely my heroine.

Jenny: Oh, “Fireworks” is a departure. That’s very positive and cheerleader-y.

Krissie: My heroine’s a powerhouse.

Jenny: Good theme for her, then. There’s an innocence to that song. It’s very youthful. It’s too young and optimistic for anything I’d write.

Krissie: One of my darkest, sexiest books, Into the Fire, (which is brilliant and much under-apreciated) was written listening to Sarah McLachlan. That’s even where the title came from. That and J-rock. “Fireworks” had the right mood, the exuberance I needed for a certain part in the book as Beth was coming into her own, claiming herself.

Jenny: So it fits the character of your heroine. Young and optimistic. You like young heroines usually, don’t you?

Krissie: No, it fit her journey. Late twenties/early thirties usually.

Jenny: It’s a virginal song, if you will.

Krissie: My heroines tend to be emotional virgins. “Everybody’s got to Learn Sometimes” (the Beck version) is also key to that book. The mournful tone of it. But we have to end with triumph. And there’s humor. You need songs that reflect the humor in a book. Or I do, since you noticed how dark my soundtrack was.

Lani: What songs did you use for humor in On Thin Ice?

Krissie: I’m looking. Hold on. “Chaiyya Chaiyaa.” And Van Morrison’s “Sense of Wonder.”

Lani: Oh, neat. I love Van Morrison. Used him in The Comeback Kiss.

Krissie: Not funny songs, but fit a funny mood. Plus Richard Thompson is hysterical in a very dark way. Plus Warren Zevon’s funny. “Lawyer’s Guns and Money?” Perfect. “Chaiyya Chaiyaa” is from The Inside Man (the Clive Owen movie) though there are lots of versions. It’s Indian.

Lani: I’ve never thought of Richard Thompson as funny. I go to Jason Mraz and the Barenaked Ladies for funny. It’s great, a really fun energy.

Jenny: I love “Lawyers Guns and Money.” You need a few light songs to balance the dark. Like I need intense songs to balance the light.

Krissie: Yup.

Lani: Yeah, me, too – finding the intensity is always a thing for me. Although now I’m listening to Richard Thompson on Pandora and I see what Krissie’s talking about.

Krissie: So that’s what I used for On Thin Ice. For historicals it’s a little different (neither of you write them, of course)

Jenny: How is it different for historicals?

Lani: Do you use period music?

Krissie: A bit. I’ve got a great cd of Georgian Regency dance music which I listened to when I wrote a dance scene. Give me a second and I’ll find my soundtrack. I’ve got some opera, I’ve got “Not Pretty Enough” by Kasey Chambers which you hated but is sooo my heroines and sooo not yours.

Jenny: Me or Lani?

Krissie: You. I also listen to Immediate Music, which sounds like soundtracks. Apparently they do music for trailers. I don’t use hard rock for historicals. I’ll use a lot of Celtic music.

Jenny: Not hard rock for your rakes? I thought that would be an obvious tie, but too much of an anachronism probably.

Krissie: Oh, there’s a great one that really clarified a hero. It’s “Golden Golden” by Silly Wizard, and it’s about being afraid to fall in love (of course).

Jenny: That’s your hero.

Lani: There you go.

Krissie: The words and the music really clarified my somewhat muddy hero, and I was just listening to the song for fun.

Jenny: I think that’s the key to music and writing: the clarification.

Lani: The music kind of fills in the edges.

Jenny: Pulls you back to the center of the character and the scene.

Krissie: “Golden Golden” is a new song. There are a lot of Celtic musicians who write new stuff that I’ve used, like the Cranberries, and October Project. I use those. It’s such a joy when you find a song that does that. I find that I can waste time though, looking too hard for the right song and never being able to find it.

Jenny: But finding the right music is like being handed a lifeline to the story. Lani, how about you? Tell us about the soundtrack for a book you did.

Lani: I had one song by Eric Hutchinson, “You Don’t Have to Believe Me,” that became the theme for A Little Night Magic.

Krissie: You know such different music than I do, Lani.

Jenny: Love that. It’s kind of the non-musical theme of the book, too.

Lani: There was the literal reading of, “No one’s going to believe this,” along with that bouncy element that was just Liv’s personality, from top to bottom. Then I was watching Private Practice, and a Katie Costello song came on, and I discovered her, and she was the bulk of the soundtrack from there. Really quirky and interesting and vulnerable; love her.

Jenny: I will have to check her out. So specifics. Tie the music to the book. You don’t do character themes, you said.

Lani: I do character work with it. But mostly it’s tone, mood, emotional moments. There’s a song by Missy Higgins, “Unbroken,” which is this very defiant, you-will-not-keep-me-down song that was great for when Liv picked up from her dark moment and decided to keep fighting. I also have a song by Jill Scott, “Hate On Me,” which was Davina’s theme song, since she’ll do what she has to do and to hell with anyone in her way.

Jenny: What’s the love theme? Don’t you usually have a love theme?

Lani: I’m looking through my list… hang on…

Jenny: Krissie, do you have specifics tied to scenes in the book that you want to talk about?

Krissie: Not really. My books tend to be divided into acts, and songs for for certain acts. Like “Hold on Hope” from the Scrubs soundtrack and “How to Save a Life” were for the trip down the mountain. The period at the mission was mournful music. The boat more upbeat, the period ins spain action music. They didn’t have Yanni sex but then they didn’t have Nine Inch Nails sex. There’s was more Chris Isak Wicked Games sex. And Sugababes sex.

Lani: I don’t think I had any one particular love theme; I had a few songs that represented that relationship. “Isn’t it Lovely” by Katie Costello, “Smile” by Uncle Kracker, “Stupid for You,” by Marie Digby.

Jenny: I’m all over the place on the soundtrack, but I think mine is more about relationships than anything else.

Krissie: Examples?

Jenny: There’s a pair of Pink Martini songs for Liz and Cash that’ll be in the next book: “And Then You’re Gone” and “And Now I’m Back.”

Krissie: Great titles.

Jenny: They’re light in tone which is what I need or Cash just becomes a jerk and you don’t see what Liz sees in him.

Krissie: Are they meant to reflect each other (to Pink Martini, that is)

Jenny: I think they were. But they’re perfect for Liz and Cash, very upbeat and funny, no real emotion there.

Lani: What do you have in your soundtrack for Liz? Is there a love theme for her and Vince?

Jenny When she’s with Vince the different times, it’s Elvis’s “Such a Night” and “Hallelujah” and the fallback Sugababes. I don’t have a single love theme for them yet, but I will.

Krissie: Dare I say it, but I don’t care about Liz and Cash, I care about Liz and Vince.

Jenny: Yeah, I know, but Liz has to get by Cash before she gets to Vince. And Cash is really central to all four books. He was her first great love so he has to be on the page and he has to be there in contract to Vince, as a foil.

Lani: Well, if she needs to make that connection to Cash, then she needs it in her soundtrack. Otherwise, he becomes cardboard, and he’s a big thing for Liz.

Jenny: It’s that curse of the Old Boyfriend. If he’s awful, she’s an idiot. If he’s immature and she’s grown past him, then it’s understandable. And the Pink Martini songs sell that.

Krissie: Oh, I think one can be blinded by hormones.

Lani: Or if they’re just not right for each other.

Jenny: They were right for each other fifteen years ago. Pink Martini is frothy. They did the Coupling theme song and I love that. But I like characters choosing their own music within the story, too, because that characterizes them.

Krissie: I like that idea too. I’m going to work on that. Having a theme song for my characters. My trickster hero is so different from the other angels and yet I haven’t given him his own music. I’ve just been falling back on my angel soundtrack. I see fun work in my near future.

Jenny: Like Liz says she’s not getting married until she finds a guy who will let her have “My Life Would Suck Without You” as a wedding march, which means not only that he can’t take a wedding ceremony too seriously, he can’t take his music too seriously.

Lani: There you go.

Jenny: And she has “Birdhouse In Your Soul” as her iPhone ring, so that’s what she ends up teaching Peri when they’re stuck outside the bar. (Peri’s 12). And then later on, Peri makes up her own words to “Birdhouse” and sings them back, and Liz gets her a blue canary nightlight. So it’s all character. I think Liz’s theme is “Don’t Hold Me Down” although that seems a little on the nose. Oh, and at the third turning point when she’s pretty much lost everything, I play CeeLo’s “Fuck You.” I love that song.

Lani: I need to freshen up the soundtrack every now and again.

Krissie: It’s one of those things I worry about — that I’m just trying to avoid writing. I don’t trust non-word-producing work. Stupid, I know, but I’m stuck in that rut that only new words count. Revisions sort of count, but not really.

Lani: Yeah, no matter how good the work is that I’m doing, if I’m not producing actual new words, I always feel like a fraud. That’s why I’m usually in a good mood when I’m that phase of it.

Jenny: I find that more stuff like this I do, the easier it is later to get back into the book. It’s been interesting doing this soundtrack because I keep finding music that I have to move to later books. So I’m keeping the whole four book arc in my head musically because it has to be cohesive.

Lani: I think Lily Allen is going to be the music for Stacy.

Jenny: Oh, she’s perfect for Stacy. Terri Clark has been really good for Liz.

Lani: Okay, now I’m listening to Cee-lo. Stacy’s gonna need that, too. Boy, I’m glad we did this!

Jenny: LOL. CeeLo is good for EVERYTHING. Anybody got anything else to say about soundtracks? We need a closing line before we move on to collage.

Krissie: God bless iTunes.

Lucy March’s A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin’s Press on January 31, 2012.

Kristina Douglas’s Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.

Jenny Crusie’s You Again and Lavender’s Blue will be out from St. Martin’s Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody’s guess.

This is the fourth in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Lucy and Jenny tend to write heroine-centered books (heroine as protagonist) like Lucy’s newest book, A Little Night Magic, in stores on January 31, while Krissie tends to go for hero-centered books, as in new series about fallen angels, The Fallen (Raziel, Demon, and Warrior, out in April 2012). So once again we got together in our Three Goddesses chat room to talk about what we know about heroines, heroes, and protagonists in general. Today’s topic: Heroes.

Lani: Heroes. What’s essential in a hero? You know, a lot of the same things I look for in a heroine. I want him to be smart, brave, have a sense of humor.

Jenny: Smart, strong, vulnerable, sense of humor.

Lani: Flawed. Vulnerable. I think there are certain things that just apply to characters in general.

Jenny: I like a hero who’s not looking for a relationship so the heroine can blindside him. So independent, too.

Lani: But for a hero, I really need him to be strong. I like the idea of a guy who can hold his own against a really strong heroine.

Jenny And I love a smart-mouthed hero who can hold his own with a smart-mouthed heroine. Nick and Nora.

Lani: Absolutely.

Jenny: Confident but not arrogant. Doing good work at whatever he does. Competent.

Lani: Absolutely, competent. I love smart, too. That matters a lot to me.

Krissie: Agree with all that.

Jenny: Goals of his own, not just there to follow the heroine around. Good in bed. Sue me, I’m superficial.

Lani: And I like sensitive to a certain degree, which is where I think I vary from you and Krissie. You like your guys a little harder-edged, I think.

Krissie: My heroes seem to have a little more community than my heroines have. Which is interesting.

Jenny: Well, they’re sensitive underneath.

Lani: Good in bed is not superficial. Although everyone needs a little schooling when you’re in a new pair….

Krissie: Oh definitely good in bed. the equivalent of the glittery hooha.

Jenny: A little higher and to the left. The glittery WHOA-oh. Never mind.

Krissie: chuckle

Lani: Right. Even with people who are good, you need a little training, because everyone’s different. So I like a hero who can take direction.

Jenny: Especially one who asks for directions.

Lani: As long as he’s not constantly asking. “Is this it? Is this it?” Not attractive. I like a hero who lets the heroine be strong, too. Who doesn’t feel intimidated by what makes her incredible.

Krissie: Vulnerability is interesting. Tricky to show it in a stone cold killer. Or someone who’s determined to be a villain, like the hero in To Love a Dark Lord, which just came out in e-form. But you do see vulnerability, in the music he plays.

Lani: Oh, god, I love To Love a Dark Lord. That book was so good.

Krissie: Smooch. It was definitely one of my best.

Lani: But he was really vulnerable, when it came down to it. His determination to sidestep that vulnerability highlights it beautifully.

Krissie: He’s so bad.

[I took us off course here by talking about the sex in Lavender's Blue because I was having troubles with it. So there's a chunk of discussion missing here because I cut that out. But then I made a point I wanted to make about heroes right after that, so I left that part in. Vince is the hero in Lavender's Blue.]

Lani: So, Krissie, tell us about your hero in Warrior.

Jenny: Wait a minute, one more thing about Vince. The problem is, there are a million characters in here because it’s mystery (suspects!) and Vince at the moment is just The Cop. So I have to characterize him in some visual, concrete way. Liz has a passion for diners. Vince, she finds out, lives in an old diner he’s rehabbed. That really turns her on. I think the places heroes live say a lot about them.

Lani: I love that.

Krissie: Oh, he lives in an old diner? That is fabulous!

Jenny: So I think if the hero is not the protagonist, you end up doing with him what Krissie does with her heroines, defining him in relationship to the heroine. Liz loves diners, Vince lives in an old diner.

Lani: I know, I love that it turns her on. Liz’s relationship with food is orgasmic. Her description of the burger vs. the sex pretty much says everything about her.

Jenny: Liz hates liars, Vince never lies. Liz is tired of taking care of everybody, Vince is the cop who takes care of the town. The hero kind of develops in the heroine’s wake.

Lani: Right. That makes sense. The protagonist is the anchor, and everything else flows around that.

Jenny: Who is he turns her on, including the place he’s living. He kind of is that diner.

Lani: Yeah, I think that’s true. And a great way of developing that character.

Jenny: So Krissie. Heroes? They’re your protagonists.

Krissie: In the latest Angel book the Archangel Michael is trying to lead the Fallen in a fight against the bad armies. He’s a bit of a martinet — he looks a little like Paul Bettany in Legion – buzzed hair. Lots of tattoos that moves around his body. He never bonds with any women, he refuses to drink blood. He sleeps in what looks like a monk’s cell, on a narrow bed. He denies himself everything. And then he’s told he had to marry the princess in the tower . . .

Jenny: I’m seeing angry sex coming up.

Krissie: . . . who’s kept there by an evil witch.

Jenny: Love that.

Krissie: There’s so much sex in this book my editor asked me to cut one scene. Sigh.

Lani: LOL, wow. Does your editor know you?

Jenny: If this is the editor who missed Cock and Swallow, she may not be the best judge.

Krissie: No, different editor. But the sex really moves and changes. It starts straightforward. then becomes more involved, angrier, emotional …

Lani: You really don’t pull any punches when it comes to the angry sex, or the emotion.

Krissie: The final love scene has him drinking her blood. The final connection. The ultimate bond. Usually neither of my characters really want to have sex, but they can’t help it. So there’s a lot of anger there. Neither of them want that connection. So they’re drawn to each other but hate that fact. They think it will lead to their destruction.

Jenny: Lani’s characters always want to have sex. There must be something wrong with her.

Krissie: Really?

Lani: I love that irresistible pull. Just not in courtyards.

Krissie: When didn’t they have sex in the courtyard? Oh, Dogs and Goddesses. Okay, just no courtyards. So my heroes usually have a mission. And the heroines either get in the way of the mission or become a tool in the mission. And then eventually a partner in the mission. It’s the arc, like in sex. Conflict. My heroes often tend to kill people — I don’t know what that says about me.

Jenny: You know exactly what that says about you.

Krissie: I write Men Who Kill and Women Who Love Them.

Jenny: So your protagonist hero has to have a mission. What else does he need?

Krissie: They can be brutal, very practical, unsentimental. They’ve got a very dark sense of humor. Often more than the heroine. But then, she’s way out of her depth so it’s hard to find things amusing.

Jenny: Your heroes are always very powerful. Dukes and archangels and such.

Krissie: Jo Beverley and I argue about honor. She thinks a hero should be honorable. I think a hero makes his own code, and sticks to it. It might not be anyone else’s idea of honor, but it works for the hero.

Jenny: (typing at the same time) I think he should have his own code. I don’t think it has to match other people’s ideas of honorable. Oh, there you go. GMTA.

Lani: I agree about a hero having his own code.

Krissie: And of course you need to make sure the reader accepts it.

Jenny: Right. Which depends a lot on the charm of the hero. How much the reader admires him on the page. I dealt with that with the con man hero.

Krissie: Yes. Some are charming, like Killoran in To Love a Dark Lord. Some are a little grim, like Michael. Some are in between.

Jenny: Plus it gives you a really good arc. Like Moist in Going Postal. Once he realizes what he’s done to people, his own code demands that he make amends.

Krissie: Yes, my heroes are always The Tallest Man in the Room.

Lani: A neat idea; The Tallest Man in the Room.

Jenny: A good trait in a hero.

Krissie: Though occasionally they can seem ordinary, like Peter in Cold as Ice. He’s a gray ghost when she first meets him. Totally forgettable. But that was part of his stock in trade. what an odd phrase. never thought of it before.

Jenny: I was going to say, the real Peter isn’t forgettable, that’s his mask. The Scarlet Pimpernel.

Krissie: Yes. God, I love masquerade scenarios. And trickster heroes. Just adore them. Much more interesting than a hero who is what he seems.

Jenny: Well, sometimes. Sometimes the hero who is what he seems is just what the heroine needs.

Krissie: Yup, Michael is pretty much what he seems, but with a softer core. He’s strong and powerful, but she’s a match for him.

Lani: I like a hero who is what he is, but I can appreciate the trickster, too. Depends on the story.

Jenny: If the rest of her life is chaos, the strong guy standing quietly in the middle of the storm is a good, good thing. I think again, for me, it depends on the heroine.

Krissie: My Cain (in Rebel) is a trickster. So is Killoran in To Love a Dark Lord.

Lani: Yeah, and there’s something incredibly romantic about the calm guy you can put your back up against. But again, that’s for us who define our heroes through our heroine.

Jenny: So Krissie would reverse engineer.

Lani: Krissie, you define your heroines through your heroes; Jen and I do it the other way around.

Krissie: Absolutely! The title character in The High Sheriff of Huntingdon is interesting, because a charming trickster hero who really is what he seems to be. And vice versa.

Lani: So for Krissie, the hero can’t just be the strong guy in the middle of her storm, he has to be the storm.

Jenny: I loved that novella.

Krissie: In On Thin Ice I actually started with the heroine. I knew who the hero was — part of the Committee, and I knew he’d develop as I wrote. But the heroine was the interesting one. Why was she down in South America, doing what she was doing?

Jenny: That’s interesting. You started with the heroine.

Krissie: What her past was, why she reacted as she did. I loved that heroine.

Jenny: So what this comes down to, then, is that you start with your protagonist and the love interest develops from that?

Krissie: Absolutely. I think.

Jenny: So really, developing a heroine and hero aren’t that different for you?

Krissie: Hold on, let me cogitate.

Jenny: Sure.
(twiddles thumbs)
(whistles)
(does crossword)
(gets out vibrator)

Krissie: No, it always seems to start with characters. Sometimes it’s the situation they’re in, but it’s still the protagonist which makes sense. Characters are the most important aspect of fiction.

Jenny: Absolutely.

Lani: Well, I think that’s how we all do it, isn’t it? Jenny and I start with heroines, and Krissie usually starts with heroes, but one is the main protagonist, and the other is built around that.

Jenny: I guess I always thought your process must be different because you’re hero-centric, but it isn’t.

Krissie:
No, they’re not that different. because some of my books are heroine centered . I think On Thin Ice might be heroine-centric.

Lani: Right, but a protagonist is a protagonist; they’re essentially built in the same way.

Jenny: It’s still who powers the book, and then what kind of character could kneecap that protagonist with blind passion and never-ending love? So it’s function that determines how the characters are built? Lani, does that work for you?

Lani: I think so. One drives the plot, that’s who you start with. But the building process is pretty much the same.

Jenny: Around the character who has the motivational fuel to drive the plot.

Krissie: The Devil’s Waltz was heroine-centered as well. So was Ice Storm (about Isobel). Luscious heroes, but it was more the heroine’s story. In fact, Warrior might be a little more about Tory than Michael.

Jenny: She’s the one with the most to lose?

Krissie: They both have their lives to lose. But she starts with nothing and gains everything. He starts at a better place so it seems more about her.

Jenny: Good call on making her the protagonist.

Lani: But he’s the one who’s driving the action, though, right? He’s pursuing her?

Jenny: He’s the one with the goal?

Krissie: He helps her escape. And pursuing … well, she’s driving the action by running.

Jenny: But it’s her desire to escape, it’s her goal, that drives the plot?

Lani: I thought he was going after her to pursue the prophecy, which makes it seem like it’s his story. But if she’s trying to escape and he’s her means, maybe not.

Krissie: And then they both driving the action because they’re both on the run.

Jenny: Both stories are possible, but you have to choose one to be dominant.

Krissie: It becomes love and cherish Tory (as well as save the world) I think her goal is stronger. His goal has always been to lead the army of the Fallen.

Jenny: Okay. Big goal.

Lani: Well, there’s a close run between primary and secondary protagonist. Sometimes, if they’re both driving the plot, it comes down to who has more to lose. Who has more at stake.

Jenny: Or who the reader cares more about.

Krissie: Tory wants freedom, life, love, everything she’s been denied, and she’ll fight for it. Tory has more to lose. Michael is a soldier who know death is part of his job description

Jenny: Sounds like a Bob Mayer hero. I always loved those heroes.

Krissie: Love Bob’s heroes.

Lani: They’re great heroes.

Krissie: In Warrior it’s hard to say who the reader cares more about. Michael is gorgeous, of course, and tied up in knots.

Jenny: At The Cock and Swallow?

Krissie: Tory helps untangle those knots, making him vulnerable, which he’s never been in his existence.

Jenny: Sorry. I’m having trouble letting go of that one.

Lani: Well, it’s a big one.

Jenny: You didn’t say that. In front of Krissie?

Lani: It’s low-hanging fruit.

Jenny STOP THAT. Jesus, the visuals. LANI, TELL US ABOUT YOUR HEROES.

Lani: Besides, it doesn’t matter what I say. Krissie will find a way to make it sexual. It’s part of the fun of being around Krissie.

Krissie: No one realized, many moons ago, when I wrote a book called Museum Piece, that it had three meanings. About the museum piece being stolen, about it being a piece (book) set in a museum, and that the heroine who worked there was a piece of ass. When I told my editor she blanched. I’m so hard on editors.

Jenny: Blanched. Good word. I just giggled.

Lani: LOL.

Krissie: It is a great word, isn’t it? I love words.

Jenny: It’s like Beavette and Buttheadia in here. LANI, YOUR HEROES.

Lani: And which are you? You keep going back to The Cock and Swallow. Don’t pretend you’re better than us.

Jenny: I used to go to The Cock and Swallow. Now I do crafts.

Lani: Well, you gotta sublimate somehow. Okay. My heroes. My heroes tend to be strong beta types. Dependable. Smart. Funny. I like the strong man in the middle of the heroine’s chaos, helping to guide her through.

Jenny: You do like beta heroes. And Krissie likes alphas. I like snarkas.

Lani: I do. That strong, sensitive guy you can put your back up against. I find that incredibly romantic. Especially because my heroines are usually in such chaos.

Jenny: Protagonists in chaos are a good thing.

Lani: I did write one hero-centered book, The Comeback Kiss, with Finn. I loved Finn. A former bird-thief trying to grow up and do the right thing, and of course it all goes south on him. But mostly, it’s heroine-centered. What I liked about Tobias in A Little Night Magic was how he was that strong, silent type.

Jenny: He really is. You can count on Tobias. I love that in a hero.

Lani: He would make personal sacrifices for the greater good, for Liv. She loved him loudly – with proclamations – and he loved her through his actions. I loved that he expressed himself through what he did, not what he said. He wasn’t a talky guy.

Jenny: There’s something about that guy who’s there when you need him. Remember Freddie in Cotillion? Talk about a beta, but boy was he there whenever Kitty needed him. I loved it that Tobias fed her. That’s huge. Luke pouring coffee for Lorelei.

Krissie: Well, hell, we all love a hero who tells a plump heroine to eat more and hates when they lose weight. Epic female fantasy.

Lani: That’s how I usually write my heroes. I’m stepping out of that comfort zone now, with the new book, but for most of my books, it’s the strong, there-when-you-need-him guy. Yes, I love that he fed her. Liv had such a complex about her weight, and he just said, “Shut up and eat.”

Jenny: Well, wait a minute. Cain may be a reluctant hero, but if he sees a problem, he’s there.

Lani: Oh, no, Cain’s different in that he’s a little more chaotic than my typical hero. He’s still there when you need him. I liked that about Tobias, too. He was badass in a lot of ways, a very dangerous guy, but very controlled, and he didn’t need to show off for Liv. He let her be powerful, too.

Krissie: I like a hero you can depend on, a hero who can rescue you, even though you end up rescuing yourself. One who can grin at you over the pile of bodies you both dispatched.

Jenny: Different worlds. Lani wants a hero who smiles at her over pancakes and Krissie wants a hero who smiles over corpses.

Lani: And both are good.

Jenny: Yeah, the buried badass. That’s always seductive in a hero. “I’m calm now, but you wouldn’t like me angry.” NOT said to the heroine.

Krissie: LOL! So true

Lani: It’s funny, considering the kind of stuff I write, how much I love Krissie’s books. I think it’s because she does stuff I don’t do, and she does it so well. It’s really fun for me. Cain’s a little more trouble than most of my guys. And Stacy’s a little more trouble than most of my heroines. It’s fun watching them come together.

Krissie: We can be drawn to the stuff we don’t write. Like I adore Susan Elizabeth Phillips (not to mention you two). I do not write like SEP.

Lani: Right. But there’s some fun in looking at what you do and thinking, “How might I do something like that?” It’s such a different take on a hero, and I love it. It’s really got me thinking, now that I’m writing a more chaotic guy.

Krissie: My heroes are so extreme that it’s always useful to considering using just a dash of them in one’s heroes. They’re a little too intense for most people.

Jenny: I think the big thing in writing heroes (or heroines if your books are hero-centric) is “Is this a guy I want Our Girl to end up with?” Because I think readers take ownership of the protagonist.

Krissie: Absolutely.

Jenny: So if the heroine needs a beta, they’re going to want a beta, and if she needs an alpha, they’re going to want the alpha. I think that’s what happens in those books where the heroine has to choose between two heroes. There has to be one who’s inevitable, given who the heroine is.

Lani: Right. It’s nice to mix it up a bit, and to get what your heroine (or hero) needs.

Krissie: Yes. it’s good if your alpha can have a beta side. and vice versa. Do you consider your heroes betas, Jenny?

Lani: Jenny’s are quiet alphas, I think.

Jenny: I’m not sure what mine are.

Lani: Your heroes are in charge, but they’re not interested in being showy about it, I think.

Jenny: I gave Vince a dicey past and an anger problem, so he may be veering toward alpha, especially since he controls the town. But somebody like Phin was pretty beta.

Krissie Yes. though in general that’s not a trope (hate that word) that I’m fond of.

Jenny: I think they’re repressed more than quiet. Lotta anger in those guys. It goes nicely with the anger in my heroines.

Krissie: Now I was gonna say Phin was Alpha. So was Davey. But a mix. Not a swaggering alpha.I really like anger in heroes. Smoldering, repressed anger. Turns me on for some reason.

Lani: I didn’t see Phin as beta. How do you guys define beta and alpha? Is alpha about being dangerous? How do you see it?

Jenny: I think alpha and beta may be too reductive a way to look at heroes. It’s like the madonna-whore dichotomy for heroines.

Krissie: Yes, it is, isn’t it?

Lani: You know, I think you’re right. I don’t find it a really useful distinction. But it’s what we’ve been working with in romance for a long time, so you kind of look at it and say, “I guess… beta?”

Krissie: And then you throw in the gamma hero … Whatever gamma is.

Lani I’ve never understood the gamma hero really well.

Jenny: Gamma: “SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP if that’s okay with you and doesn’t violate your personal space.” No, that doesn’t work for me, either.

Lani: LOL.

Jenny: I don’t think the alpha/beta thing is really accurate or useful.. I think my heroes are more complex than that, and I think yours are too.

Lani: I think so, too.

Krissie: God, I hope all our heroes are.

Jenny: Yeah, that “your” meant “Krissie and Lani.”

Krissie: Alison Hart writes consistently gentle heroes that I adore. I like a hero who can tell you he’s going to kill you but still be incredibly gentle when you fall apart (Finn in On Thin Ice).

Jenny: See, I’m still tripping over the “I’m going to kill you” part. I think that would be a deal-breaker for my heroines.

Krissie: I don’t really mean that. It’s “if you don’t get your ass in gear and get down this mountain and the bad guys catch up with us then I’ll toss you into the river.” threats that he may or may not mean (he doesn’t mean them) But he’s a hardass who can be very gentle. I like that combination. When my heroine falls apart at the death of people she loved he pulls her into his arms and comforts her. And then never mentions it.

Jenny: You know really, at the end of the day, what we want in our heroes is what turns us on. Krissie wants danger, Lani wants a safe harbor, and I want somebody who can meet me head-on. I mean we all want all three, but our points of dick-and-awe are different.

Krissie: Yes. but in the end, we all react to each other’s heroes with lust. Because we’re all such good writers. And incredibly cool to boot. The writer can make it work, whether it’s our fantasy or not.

Jenny: Is that because there’s a little bit of all three in all of them? So we can find what we need in them all?

Krissie: I think so. The reader brings so much to a book, it’s really a collaboration.

Jenny: It absolutely is. There were readers who didn’t like Phin because they thought he was abusive. Just not their fantasy at all.

Lani: They thought Phin was abusive? Wow. I need to read that book again.

Jenny: He was a jerk in places.

Lani: The collaboration thing is true in general. There are people who are your reader, and people who are not. And that’s okay; if you appeal to everyone, your fiction is watered down.

Krissie: I think a well-rounded hero has to be a jerk in places. because, after all, he’s a man

Jenny: But a well-rounded heroine doesn’t? Is it a male thing?

Lani: Well, everyone’s an asshole sometimes. And who wants a perfect hero?

Krissie: Actually Sharon and Tom Curtis could write perfect heroes. But they’re the only ones. And I guess they were flawed. They just seemed like golden princes to me.

Lani: But for me, stalking is a trigger. So if I read a stalker hero, it’s going to bug me. But millions loved Twilight, because their definition of stalker isn’t as strict as mine, especially because Bella loved it. So, it’s just a matter of being a match to your reader, and people who are not your reader can find another great author who is.

Jenny: Yes.

Krissie: You should download Lightning That Lingers. It holds up.

Jenny: Okay, we’re talking about writing our heroes. I’m over here herding ducks again. How would you sum up what we’ve learned from this, Dorothys?

Lani: I think that character’s character, and what you want is a strong character, be it hero or heroine.

Krissie: There’s no place like home?

Jenny: Click your heels three times and the perfect hero will appear.

Krissie: And you want your hero and heroine linked. Magic hooha or whatever. They complete each other, whether they like it or not, though it can take a while (usually the length of the book) for them to realize it.

Jenny: The irrevocable pull of the soulmate, no matter how unlikely. Thus the, “Oh, hell, not you” trope. Which none of us appear to be working with this time.

Lani: I love the idea of the love interest being the one that fits perfectly with the protagonist, flaws and all.

Jenny: But the protagonist has to gain enough self-knowledge to realize that. Character arc as an echo of relationship arc.

Lani: Right. It takes the situation, the problem of the story, to bond them together.

Krissie: Damn, I let the word trope out of Pandora’s box.

Jenny: And now it’s dancing all over the place.

Lani: I like the word trope.

Krissie: Oh, I’m doing Oh-hell-not-you. I think I pretty much always do.

Lani: I don’t, but I’ve got a variation on it now with the new book.

Krissie: I think we did good work here.

Jenny: Me, too. Although we talked a lot about sex. Maybe we need to do a chat on just on that. Coming soon:

Or maybe not.

Lucy March’s A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin’s Press on January 31, 2012.

Kristina Douglas’s Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.

Jenny Crusie’s You Again and Lavender’s Blue will be out from St. Martin’s Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody’s guess.

This is the third in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Lucy and Jenny tend to write heroine-centered books (heroine as protagonist) like Lucy’s newest book, A Little Night Magic, in stores on January 31, while Krissie tends to go for hero-centered books, as in new series about fallen angels, The Fallen (Raziel, Demon, and Warrior, out in April 2012). So once again we got together in our Three Goddesses chat room to talk about what we know about heroines, heroes, and protagonists in general. First up: Heroines.

Jenny: What do you think is essential in a heroine?

Krissie: Hmmm. Heroines need to have an inner strength. Can’t be a dishrag. They need a certain bravery in facing life without being foolhardy or TSTL.

Jenny: Mine have to have a good sense of humor. They may be doing everything wrong, but they know how to cope with the world with humor. That’s really important to me because I think it’s a sign of emotional health.

Krissie: For my heroines, I need a certain amount of vulnerability as well. Some people think I go overboard with that, but it mirrors my own, and it’s what I identify with. I think if you’re vulnerable then being brave is even more of a risk.

Lani: For me, the heroine needs to be someone I want to spend time with. Usually, that means smart, funny, and with some variety of flaws or weaknesses that make her interesting. Depends on the story what those might be. I think all protagonists need vulnerability.

Jenny: So smart, vulnerable, fun to be with, good sense of humor? I think you’re right on the vulnerability. That’s what makes us attach to them, I think.

Krissie: And brave. Not just brave enough to face the villains, but brave enough to face the hero.

Lani: And brave enough to face herself. It’s fun to give the heroine something to arc from, so that when she transforms, we’re rooting for her.

Jenny: Pro-active. Not waiting to be rescued.

Lani: I like an active heroine; someone who’s willing to go after what she wants, instead of being reactive and passive.

Krissie: Oh, yes. She’s got to be able to rescue herself or at least work with the hero to rescue her.

Jenny: Flawed so she can grow, then.

Lani: Right; characters interest me in general via their flaws.

Krissie: Flaws are interesting. I may respond to their yearnings. What they secretly long for and think they can’t have.

Jenny: I think there has to be a kind of charm to their personalities, too. Something larger than life.

Krissie: Yes, charm is good. But charm is an interesting trait. My current hero is charming, which is very dangerous. Charm can be deceptive. I’m charming, but deeply flawed.

Jenny: Maybe charm isn’t what I mean. She has to be interesting. Not just because of what’s happening to her but because of how she reacts and handles it.

Krissie: Yes, interesting. She has to have something that people respond to.

Lani: I love an awkward heroine; one who hasn’t quite grown into herself yet. The core is there, but she needs to grow into it. I’m a sucker for growth, for a transformation story. I love those.

Jenny: Absolutely. That character arc is key.

Krissie: And warmth, maybe. I think people tend to respond to smart, brave, vulnerable people.

Jenny: Who make mistakes.

Krissie: Amen.

Jenny: I think she has to have gotten herself into the mess she’s in. No getting hit by a plot bus.

Lani: I think a certain level of kindness is necessary. Maybe not kindness, but fairness; she can be a bitch, but not to people who don’t deserve it.

Jenny: Yes. She has to be mentally healthy, which means no bullying, no making fun of people, etc.

Krissie: Mistakes are interesting. They’re really interesting and necessary, but if they’re too major I can’t read a book. If the heroine has screwed things up so badly it can make me a little crazy.

Jenny: Right. Not learning is not attractive. I watched Morning Glory again last night. She screws up her relationship three times, but each time she goes back and says, “I screwed this up.” And it’s never the same mistake.

Lani: I think mistakes are great, but you have to understand why they do it, and yes – that they’re not making the same mistake over and over again. A fumbling heroine can be fun and charming.

Krissie: Anyway, heroines who keep misunderstanding and making the same stupid mistakes drive me crazy. I like a heroine who betrays the hero at some point, and vice versa.

Jenny: I don’t think I can do the betrayal thing. Betraying somebody you love is a huge red flag for me.

Krissie: Well, by betrayal I mean thinking the worst of the hero. Rejecting him instead of waiting to hear his side of the story. You’d write that, wouldn’t you? Your heroines get righteously pissed and just turn off. That’s a kind of betrayal to me.

Jenny: Isn’t that a Big Misunderstanding?

Lani: In an early part of a story, as part of an arc, if it demonstrates her inability to trust, I see it less as a betrayal and more as a mistake, which is part of the arc.

Jenny: I don’t know.

Lani: I think cold betrayal is a kind of tough sell.

Jenny: I do understand not telling the hero everything in the beginning. He’s a stranger. Especially if he’s given her reason not to trust him.

Lani: It’s part of being the person she used to be, instead of the better, stronger person she’s going to become.

Krissie: My favorite betrayal is in Nine Coaches Waiting. The heroine is hiding out with the endangered kid, and she hears the hero (son of the bad guy) calling for her and she doesn’t say anything. If it was just her she would have gone to him, but she couldn’t risk the kid. And the hero accepts that. The readers accept it.

Jenny: I accepted that. I think trust is part of the relationship arc, but she’s not being snitty, she’s protecting somebody.

Lani: I think stuff like that is forgivable early in the story, before she’s learned what she needs to learn. I think betrayal is a strong word for it; she just doesn’t trust him yet, and she makes a choice.

Jenny: Yeah, it’s not like she said, “He’s in the attic.”

Lani: Betrayal is when you have someone’s trust, and you break that trust. Tough to write in a heroine.

Jenny: Absolutely.

Krissie: In romantic suspense, you quite often think the hero is one of the bad guys. And a frequent Dark Moment is when she goes with the real bad guy, not trusting the hero and even given the real bad guy important information. Happens a lot in romantic suspense. Might even be a key element.

Jenny: Yes. You’re right, Krissie. The Gothic is about being surrounded by men you can’t trust, the whole patriarchy thing. And there’s a strong Gothic element to everything you do.

Lani: Although in the third act, going with the bad guy instead of the hero… that might be betrayal.

Krissie: No, I’m talking 3/4 through the book and being manipulated into believing the hero is the bad guy out to kill her. And instead she’ll tell the bad cop or bad spy where the hero is, thinking she’s saving the world even though it breaks her heart.

Lani: I think in certain contexts, that can absolutely work. But it bugs me, I have to admit. At a certain point, I want them working together.

Krissie: Well, you know, I’m basically a gothic writer.

Lani: But you write such wonderful conflict in your romances, Krissie, and I’ve seen you do that and make it work.

Jenny: I think if she doesn’t trust the hero 3/4 in, the relationship isn’t working. (Duh.) By the halfway point in my stuff, I need them working together so that the reader sees that the relationship will last. Plus it makes the bond stronger.

Krissie: Whereas for me if they’re working together well then the story is pretty much over. I write really tormented relationships.

Lani: Well, when Buffy stakes Angel at the end of Season 2, it breaks her heart, but it’s what she has to do. That kind of choice is heartbreaking for her as well as him, and can be incredibly powerful.

Jenny: Yes, but Buffy isn’t making a mistake. She has to do that. It’s not that she doesn’t trust Angel when he comes back, she does. It’s a sacrifice, not a betrayal.

Krissie: Okay, I write betrayal, you guys don’t. But I write harder-edged books. Most of my heroes are killers. None of your heroes are.

Jenny: Shane was a killer. Vince in Lavender’s Blue was once a sniper.

Krissie: Oh, of course. But you know, they were sort of Bob’s characters. I was thinking of your books in particular. But you’re right.

Krissie: And yes on the Buffy scene. That’s perfect.

Jenny: It’s really not about the hero being a killer. It’s about the heroine making the mistake. If she knows he’s a killer and that makes her not trust him completely, that’s not a betrayal or a mistake, that’s being smart.

Lani: Well, with Buffy, it’s not betrayal; she’s forced to choose between her love and The Right Thing. That can be very powerful. Depends on how you define betrayal.

Krissie: But wouldn’t Angel have considered it a betrayal until he finds out why she did it?

Jenny: That’s not the point. The point is, did she betray him? And she didn’t. So the reader doesn’t think, “You, bitch!” She thinks, “Jesus, what a terrible choice, but you had to do it, Buffy.” It’s not about what the hero thinks. It’s about what the reader thinks.

Krissie: Maybe I mean something that could look like betrayal to the hero. There needs to be a dark moment, a point where you think the hero and heroine can never get together.

Lani: Yes, I think so. It’s making your heroine choose between two things she really wants, and that was incredibly powerful. And it is betrayal, actually; I take back what I said before. It’s just justified. It’s not petty betrayal. I think if the person I loved killed me, I ‘d see it as betrayal, even if it was to save the world.

Jenny: If the reader thinks it’s a sacrifice, she’ll mourn with the heroine. If she thinks it’s a betrayal, she’ll cut the heroine loose. I did that with Cordelia. What she did was just too much a betrayal of Angel.

Lani: No, but betrayal is breaking the trust someone has in you. Angel trusted Buffy completely. And had no idea what the hell was going on. So, yes, I think there’s a way to write betrayal that doesn’t make someone a bad guy, especially if it hurts her as much as it hurts him.

Jenny: I still don’t see it as betrayal.

Krissie: That’s okay, let’s move on.

Lani: I think it gets into semantics at a certain point; what we see as betrayal or not. If betrayal is always a bad thing.

Jenny Pasted from the dictionary:

betray |bi?tr?| verb [ trans. ] be disloyal to : his friends were shocked when he betrayed them. • be disloyal to (one’s country, organization, or ideology) by acting in the interests of an enemy : he could betray his country for the sake of communism. • treacherously inform an enemy of the existence or location of (a person or organization) : this group was betrayed by an informer. • treacherously reveal (secrets or information) : many of those employed by diplomats betrayed secrets and sold classified documents. • figurative reveal the presence of; be evidence of : she drew a deep breath that betrayed her indignation.

See? Not betrayal.

Lani: To be disloyal. It’s disloyal to kill the man you love, even if you’re doing it for a good reason. Betrayal. It’s just betrayal with a really good reason.

Jenny: No, it’s not disloyal if what you’re doing is what he’d do, too. And you know Angel would sacrifice himself to save the world. But basically, our ideas of “betrayal” aren’t the same. For Krissie, a heroine who doesn’t trust the hero is betraying him, right? And for me, a heroine who doesn’t trust the hero is probably being smart.

Krissie: If it’s after a point where she trusted him, yes. In the beginning of course she doesn’t trust him.

Lani: If he’s given her a good reason not to trust him, that’s his fault.

Jenny: And given that Krissie’s heroes are all killers, it is not dumb not to trust them.

Krissie: Hold on — I’m gonna find my handout about heroines.

Jenny: Especially if he’s started the book trying to kill her.

Krissie: So true. If you think the man you love is gonna kill you, it makes sense to take off. Which mine often do.

Lani: This is true. I think it’s something that works better in the types of books that Krissie writes, whereas for me, my heroines trust my heroes pretty early on. I like the working-together dynamic, that’s fun for me.

Jenny: So it really comes down to, does the reader think she’s right to still not trust, or is she rolling her eyes and saying, “oh, COME ON.” And I think a guy who’s tried to kill you doesn’t get a lot of trust for a good space of time.

Lani: Well, he definitely has to earn that trust. But in that case, I wouldn’t define it as betrayal.

Jenny: It’s really the opposite of the Too Dumb To Live heroine who goes off with the serial killer. It’s the Too Smart To Love heroine. And since we want our heroines to love, the question is really, at what point should she be trusting him? And that’s gonna depend on the heroine, the hero, and the story.

Krissie
Absolutely on the Too Smart to Love. My Heroine Handout:

THE HEROINE: 1.HER ROLE a.IS SHE AN ANTAGONIST b.A HELPLESS VICTIM c.A VICTIM WHO FIGHTS BACK? d. A PEACEMAKER e.ORDINARY WOMAN IN EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES? f.OR AN EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN 2. HER LOOKS a. BEAUTIFUL b. PLAIN c. SOME DEFECT – i. TOO TALL …

Jenny: That’s interesting. That’s all heroine as defined by hero which makes sense since you write hero-centered books.

Krissie: Yup. Well, in the handout I started with the hero and this mirrored it.

Jenny: Mine would be something like, What does she want? What does she need? What is she afraid of? That kind of thing.

Krissie: And that’s crucial, excellent stuff. Necessary.

Jenny: Because the “Is she an antagonist” in my stories would be an automatic “no” because she’s the protagonist. But in your stories, the hero is the protagonist, so that’s a damn good question.

Lani: Mine start with who she is. What are her strengths? What are her weaknesses? What really matters to her? Where is she vulnerable?

Krissie: I was talking about Dark Contemporaries, which for me are very much hero-centered most of the time.

Jenny: Your dark contemporaries are. Twilight isn’t.

Krissie: Yes, it is.

Jenny: The thing is, my heroines show up in my head and that’s where I start. So a lot of this stuff comes with the package. Although usually not “What does she want?”

Lani: We haven’t talked about the heroine’s looks, which I think is a big thing in romantic fiction.

Jenny: I try not to describe my characters.

Lani: I tend not to; beauty isn’t usually a thing, but in a lot of romantic fiction, her physical appearance is really important. It’s sometimes trite to say how breathtakingly beautiful she is; I love me an awkward heroine.

Jenny: I’m not sure physical appearance is important.

Krissie: I’ve written the occasional beautiful heroine where the actually beauty was a flaw and a curse.

Lani: Right now, part of my current heroine’s thing is that she’s breathtakingly beautiful, but she doesn’t value it at all, although it’s the first thing other people see in her. She wears shit-kickers and men’s jeans and baggy shirts. Beautiful doesn’t get the rent paid.

Jenny: I think the heroine is a placeholder for a lot of readers, so I’m leery of too much description.

Krissie: I agree. And most of it is from her POV so we shouldn’t hear a lot of description.

Jenny: I think if there’s something in her description that affects people around her, then yeah, you have to mention it. Like Paul Newman’s eyes.

Krissie: It is fun to write a classically beautiful heroine. It’s really a loaded situation.

Lani: I don’t describe any more than necessary, but I find that readers like to have some bit of anchoring in who the character is, physically.

Krissie: I like having one clear physical trait. I read a Judith Krantz book once, and it was interesting. It was as if she wrote her characters in heavy crayon rather than a pen — but they were very clear and vivid. Have you ever written a very beautiful heroine, Crusie? The kind men fall all over? I’m forgetting but I think you have.

Jenny: My first two, because I was still getting the hang of it. But I had the second one in her thirties and conscious she was aging. And when I write Nadine, I’m stuck with beautiful because she was gorgeous at fifteen. So I will then.

Lani: That’s what happened with Stacy. She was Liv’s best friend, and Liv was really conscious of her own physical awkwardness, so Stacy became a foil. Now I’m dealing with that from Stacy’s POV, and it’s interesting. I think that how they deal with the physical hand they were dealt tells you a lot about who they are as people, and becomes another branch of characterization.

Jenny: I’m more likely to say a heroine wears odd clothes, like Stacy, or has out of control hair, something that’s reflective of character rather than biology. I’m also more likely to write a heroine who has something that drives the hero crazy. Some bounce to her step or whatever. I liked that about Andie, that North heard “Layla” whenever she walked by him.

Krissie: Did he hear the slow version or the fast version of Layla?

Jenny: He heard the fast version when he met her when they were young, but when she came back, he heard the slow.

Krissie: Ah. Lust. Yes, I love that. If something unexpected about the heroine gets him incredibly hot and bothered when he doesn’t want to be.

Jenny: I love that “Oh, hell, not you” from a very rational, competent hero who just can’t resist her. And it’s not because she’s beautiful or possibly even sexy. It’s because it’s her.

Krissie: Well, yeah. He can’t fall in love with her nose or her hair or whatever. It’s what she does with it.

Lani: The classic beauty that’s just beautiful because it’s the fantasy isn’t that interesting to me.

Jenny: So getting that heroine on the page so the reader says, “Hell, yes, it’s her, you dumbass” is really important. It makes it so much more powerful that she’s not his type or whatever but there she is. And you have to get that on the page, so the reader sees it, too.

Krissie: Damn, me, too (The Oh-hell-not-you). That’s one thing (among many) that I loved in Love Actually. When Hugh Grant sees the plump (ha!) secretary

Jenny: I love that, too. She’s so wrong for him and yet, there she is.

Lani: Yes, she’s a size six. That’s Hollywood for fat girl. Oy.

Jenny: But the thing is, you can see it, too. She’s just so there and you think, “Of course he’s crazy about her.” You have to get that on the page so the reader sees it, too. So let’s get down to examples. Give me a heroine and tell me how you built her. Krissie?

Krissie: Martha. She showed up in the previous book as the Seer, the visionary, whose visions are never quite right.

Jenny: Love that. Talk about a flaw.

Krissie:I almost changed her name because Martha sounded middle aged and plump.

Jenny: Oh, I like names that work against type. I think Martha is great.

Lani: Me, too. I love unexpected names.

Krissie: But I started with her being a widow. I had to listen to the rules of the world I built. And I made her come from an abusive childhood with a prostitute mother. Where she took care of everyone.

Jenny: (typing at the same time) Plus the name “Martha” carries baggage with it, the one who takes care of everybody else. Oh. There you go.

Krissie: And now she’s in Sheol and safe and she doesn’t want to leave. She wants to stay safe and untouched, and then this utterly charming bad boy shows up

Jenny: Oh, I love this stuff, forced out of a safe world.

Krissie: And yes, I wrote her as a contrast to the hero, who drives the story and who’s name is the title (Rebel).

Lani: Ooooh, nice. Martha and Rebel. That alone says a lot.

Jenny: Right. Normally I’d say, “Wait a minute, negative goal,” but she’s not the protagonist. Who’s the heroine in Warrior?

Krissie: The Roman Goddess of war. I didn’t want to call her Bellona because that sounded like Bologna so I called her Victoria Bellona and people called her Tory.

Jenny: My Bologna has a second name, it’s Victoria. Sorry. Go on. Names are really, really important.

Krissie: It’s about Michael, the archangel in charge of battle. And he’s told he has to go find the Roman Goddess of War and marry her and drink her blood or they’ll be killed by the Armies of Heaven. Just your usual Marriage of Convenience.

Jenny: I hate a standard plot like that, you know what’s going to happen (g).

Krissie: Tory doesn’t even know who she is. Which makes it interesting. But she’s also basically a prisoner in a tower, and he flies her out of there so she’s willing to adjust (a bit).

Jenny: Lady of Shalott. You have a ton of references here.

Lani: LOL, really. That’s wonderful, how he breaks her world wide open.

Krissie: Though it takes her a while to let him drink her blood. But then, that’s part of the whole arc in a vampire book.

Jenny: Well, that makes sense. It would take me awhile to let somebody drink my blood, too. Like, FOREVER.

Krissie: When to do you let them drink from you? And when do you return the favor? It’s interesting.

Lani: Again, there’s that trust thing. It takes a lot to trust a man who wants to drink your blood.

Jenny: This is why I’m still single. Let alone wants you to drink his. There’s a limit to the fluids I’ll swap.

Lani: Stick to your guns, Crusie.

Krissie: And the blood is of course a life essence. To give that, to take it into your body, is very powerful. Much more powerful than semen.

Lani: Well, yes. Although semen is pretty powerful too.

Jenny: Makes babies.

Krissie: Yes. And the swallowing part can get to be a major level of trust in a sexual arc. I use that sparingly.

Jenny: Good conflict.

Krissie: You betcha. Conflict is vital. Without conflict there’s no book. In my books, it’s usually the hero who’s in trouble and breaks into the heroine’s relatively safe but untouched life. As in untouched by the power of sex and men and love. They can come from hellish backgrounds, and usually do. Parental betrayal R Us.

Lani: The virginal heroine. That’s a big thing for you, Krissie, and you do it so well.

Jenny: Intersting use of the word “hellish” in this context. Seriously. It really makes sense that these books are hero-centered; the heroes are the ones with the problems.

Krissie: Not always, of course. But more often than not, particuarly in my paranormals and contemporaries. Historicals are a bit different. Women can get into a lot more trouble in a historical. In fact, thinking back, all my heroines are in trouble in the historical. The hero, of course, makes the trouble worse before he makes it better.

Jenny: Don’t they always? “I was doing just fine and then came you.”

Krissie: Lots of fun.

Lani: What’s the big draw of the virginal heroine for you?

Jenny: The virginal heroine gives you a massive plot arc.

Lani: Krissie, are you saying you’re less likely to write a virginal heroine in a historical? Interesting; I would think it would be the other way around.

Krissie: No, I’m more likely. In the Rohan books one of the four was a virgin, though.

Lani: Oh, that makes sense. I got confused.

Krissie: Again, a lot of that comes from the rotten background that even my historical heroines have.

Jenny: So, Lucy, tell us about Liv from A Little Night Magic.

Lani: Liv was a fun character to write, because she’s smart and funny but insecure and a little awkward.

Jenny: She’s all of that on the first page, too. I loved her right away. And I’m a hard sell.

Lani: She’s a bit overweight, and on her own; her father was never around, and her mother died a few years back. Her entire world is this small town, Nodaway Falls. So I immediately put that in danger, gave her magical powers she couldn’t figure out, and made it her job to save the town.

Jenny: I love that. That she has to save her community.

Krissie: (Typing at the same time) I love that. GMTA

Jenny: And that they look to her. That’s such powerful characterization, that other people depend on her.

Krissie: Oh, my yes.

Lani: I love writing small towns, and the communities that form there. The microcosm of that was Liv’s three best friends, which were basically her family.

Jenny: Peach, Stacy Easter, and . . . Millie?

Lani: Yep. And when Millie gets into trouble with the magic, it ratchets everything up another notch, because Millie’s so important to her.

Krissie: Not meaning to interrupt, but that’s another way I write differently from you guys. My heroines seldom have a posse. They’re on their own. We could talk about that later.

Jenny: That’s a good point.

Lani: That’s really interesting; my heroines are almost always based in community.

Jenny: Yours move from solitude to a pair bond, Krissie. Lani’s start with a community and their arc is growing in strength to protect it. Liv does anyway.

Lani: Sometimes they’re alone at the beginning, but they move toward community, not away. Or drawing strength from the community to do what they need to do.

Jenny: Although Liv gains a whole new supernatural community, so there’s that.

Lani: In my books, the people they need are either there already or show up pretty fast. Yeah, with Liv it’s a big change, from being a drab waffle-house waitress, to being the magic goddess who has to save the world.

Krissie: Yes, mine pretty much have to be alone because they’re almost always woman in jeopardy.

Jenny: Mine usually start either isolated or supporting people who are dragging her down.

Krissie: Yes, they do, don’t they. I love that.

Jenny: But Liv in ALNM has to start with community because that’s her MacGuffin. No community, no motivation. I think it might be more than that, though. I can’t imagine Liv not drawing people to her.

Lani: For Liv, that’s the thing. She’s about to give up her community because she can’t get out of her rut, but then when it is in danger, she knows it’s the most important thing to her, and that motivates her to challenge herself and win the fight. Liv’s a people person, definitely.

Jenny: It isn’t that she chooses to join a community, it’s that who she is means a community will form around her. I think. It isn’t in her character to be alone.

Krissie: That’s a lovely idea. A community forming around the heroine. though not if everyone’s dependent on her. They aren’t, are they?

Lani: Liv’s community is definitely a support. They need her to lead the charge, but they charge right along with her, which is what I love about them. She’s not big on confidence, though, and she is a bit awkward, which I like. It’s part of her vulnerability.

Jenny: I like her vulnerability. It never goes over into TDTL. She’s in way over her head, which is another thing I like about heroines. This is not stuff they can handle as they are at the beginning. Liv’s a great example of that.

Lani: I like heroines that are challenged.

Krissie: I love audio books.

Jenny: I like Sharpies. Sorry. Just wanted to contribute.

Krissie: Sharpies? the pen or smart women?

Jenny: Both.

Krissie:
I like the new ultra-fine sharpies. So nice.

Lani: So, what about you, Jenny? Liz is a great character. How’d she form?

Jenny: Wait, what about Stacy?

Krissie: Harpies are interesting too, as supporting characters.

Lani: Oh, the ultra-fine Sharpies are awesome. All sharpies are awesome.

Jenny: I’m sorry I mentioned the Sharpies. So Stacy.

Lani: So, Liz.

Jenny: I adore Stacy Easter. She’s a great heroine.

Lani: Yes, she is. With a great name. Stacy Easter.

Krissie: Are you feeling vulnerable about Stacy? It’s okay if you don’t want to talk about her. I love what I’ve read, though.

Lani: I’m feeling vulnerable about the book in general. I’m sure it’s the crappest thing I’ve ever written. Which is how I feel about every book at this stage, so… it’s probably okay.

Jenny: Yeah, that’s normal. It’s a fabulous book, though, the stuff I’ve read.

Lani: Okay. So. LIZ.

Jenny: LIZ. From Lavender’s Blue. Liz is tricky because she has a four-book arc.

Lani: Which I love, but yeah – that’s got to be tough.

Jenny: She was fairly easy to get a voice for because it’s first person, so she’s using my voice.

Lani: Also – mysteries, which is an interesting new sandbox for you. Which is wonderful.

Jenny: Yeah, except I keep losing the body in the sand.

Lani: Will we get One in Vermillion? Because I really need that book, just for the title.

Krissie: Oh, god, I love that!

Jenny: Not until I’ve written Lavender’s Blue, Rest in Pink, Peaches and Screams, and Yellow Brick Road Kill. I have a feeling that’ll be it for Liz.

Krissie: Have you written first person before? It really makes a difference.

Jenny: In short stories. I gave Liz my voice because I can’t do first person for long stretches in any other voice, and I gave her my home town and my antipathy for it and then I stranded her there.

Lani: Well, how is Liz working out for you as a heroine? The first-person switch is interesting. Does that change the way you approach your heroine? I love her in the hometown, the reluctant prodigal daughter.

Jenny: First person is hell for sex scenes, and it definitely changes my approach to my heroine. I’m in her head all the time, so it makes the story a lot more immediate.

Krissie: But you can’t have any scenes in the hero’s POV. That’s limiting. Challenging.

Jenny: I like just the heroine’s POV. I’m not very good at male POV which was why Bob was so great to write with. Using just the heroine’s POV focuses the book. The basis for the opening is the old “Give your heroine her worst nightmare” bit. She’s trapped in Burney, and it’s as though fifteen years haven’t passed, everybody’s still expecting her to fix things for them. And her family is still insane.

Lani: A crazy family is always fun.

Jenny: She has a bunch of unresolved baggage because she left town/ran away three weeks before she graduated from high school and there are some people who are still upset about that. Plus she never really addressed the reasons she was running away.

Lani: That’s wonderful; she needs to come home to grow up and face it all.

Krissie: Does she arc into accepting her home town? You haven’t.

Jenny: Yes, across the four books, she accepts the home town.

Krissie: Bad insane or cute insane like Faking It?

Jenny: Both. Her mother has a bear collection. 700 of them. So there’s that. And her aunt still thinks she’s the anti-Christ, so there’s that. And her cousin/best friend and she still haven’t talked about what happened that made her leave town, so there’s that. And the love of her life is marrying the wrong woman, so there’s that. So a variety of insane.

Krissie: That’s a lot of trouble.

Jenny: That’s the first book. Part of it. She has more trouble than that.

Lani: Is Cash the love of her life? Does she still carry a torch?

Jenny: She still carries a reluctant torch. So does he.

Krissie: Ew. really?

Jenny: That arcs over the four books, too.

Lani: It’s what shows you your heroine; give her as much trouble as possible and see how she handles it.

Krissie: Oh, absolutely. And keep throwing things at her. Cash sounds so gross.

Jenny: It’s okay, she’s got Vince the cop. The only sane person in town.

Lani: Vince is definitely a stabilizer.

Jenny: The key is to make sure that everything that happens, happens because Liz does something.

Krissie: Yup, that’s major.

Lani: Keeping her active rather than reactive in an insane world.

Jenny: Right. She can’t just get hit by the plot bus. The harder she pushes, the harder the antagonist pushes back. And tries to kill her.

Krissie: I really don’t write women-centered books, do I?

Lani: No, you don’t. But you are loved world-wide for your heroes, so I think it’s working for you.

Jenny: Nope, you don’t, Krissie. I think it’s because you like the Gothic stuff so much, and Gothic heroines are so often victims.

Krissie: Yes, but I like challenges. Maybe I’ll write a woman-centered book. But I can’t with the angels since there are no women angels, which pisses off the women in the book. They’re not victims, but someone’s trying to victimize them. If they’re victims then they’re weak and need to be rescued. I need them to rescue themselves. Or willingly walk the plank if they think the hero will kill them

Jenny: I like the “I’m sick of this shit, so get out of my way” heroines who get hit with something and turn around and take out a village. I may have some issues.

Lani: Hey, better to work out your issues in fiction than actually taking out a whole city block.

Krissie: Hey, that’s why we write. My therapist said that once. I took my childhood coping mechanism, telling myself stories, and turned it into a career. Where I can work out things (like parental betrayal).

Lani: Like crazy mothers. For me.

Jenny: Liz isn’t angry like Agnes. (God, I loved writing Agnes.) She’s angry but she’s very controlled. So when she finally goes up in flames in the last act, it’s cathartic. I hope.

Lani: It will be. What I’ve read has been amazing.

Jenny: Krissie, I agree absolutely on rescuing themselves. Although oddly enough, Liz needs help at the end.

Lani: Well, that’s good. She’s a loner in the beginning, so moving her from loner to community is a good thing.

Jenny: I think I’m okay with that, though, because she rescues everybody else in the damn book, so the fact that she accepts help and lets somebody else save her at the end is part of character growth. I think.

Krissie: I think the heroine has to need help. The point is, she needs to connect with someone. Accepting help is major.

Jenny: She still leaves town at the end, though. She’s made her peace and made a lot of discoveries but she still leaves.

Lani: Until they draw her back.

Jenny: It takes her four books to really join the community.

Lani: I love that over the series. It’s going to be amazing.

Krissie: Will the second book come out right on the heels of the first? Because readers need to know that she hasn’t turned her back on that world and the hero. If there’s a wait between them then you need the first chapter of the second book.

Jenny: She says she’ll be back in August because that’s when the fair is and the little girl she’s bonded to asks her to come back for that. But she actually comes back in June because she misses Vince.

Krissie: Oh, that should cover it.

Lani: Which will be a lovely start for the next book.

Krissie: Though a teaser chapter wouldn’t hurt. Or just some way to know that the story is going to continue and that it’s not Liz’s adventures in the wide world.

Jenny It’s in the last scene that she’s coming back. And yeah, the first chapter of the next book, too. The problem is that it takes me ages to write a book. So bringing them out close together probably isn’t possible unless SMP holds onto the book for a couple of years.

Lani: Well, once you’ve got the major world-building done, which is where you are, they might come a little faster.

Jenny: Of course in the first chapter of Rest in Pink, she goes back to Vince and finds him in bed with somebody else. Which is fair because they had no understanding and she didn’t tell him she was coming.

Lani: I love that.

Krissie: Well, as long as they know more is coming. It seems to me, though, that if you know your characters that well, then the next books will come faster. You’re not starting from scratch. You have your internal and external conflicts already set up. You don’t have to create them.

Jenny: From your mouth to God’s ear, Krissie. It’s been interesting looking at the repeating motifs in Liz’s character throughout the four books. In the first one, she basically lives in her car and whatever hotels and motels she finds along the way. But in the second one, she’s been stuck with an RV, and it’s a first step in settling down. I love using physical things to characterize a heroine. She gets a dog, too. Veronica.

Krissie: LOL. Had to give her a rough one, eh?

Lani: Veronica! I’m so glad Veronica gets a book. She’s such a fun dog, too.

Jenny: Veronica is neurotic as hell. Which is good for Liz.

Krissie: Yeah, but she’s got a lot of attitude. She’s not a cuddle bunny like Milton or Lyle.

Jenny: Well, neither is Liz. Veronica has personality.

Krissie: Indeed. I love her.

Jenny: They’re good together. Same with the little girl, Peri. Not a cute, cuddly kid. Child of an alcoholic. Father’s dead. She’s Liz’s doppelganger, so I can do a lot of stuff there.

Lani: It’s going to be a fabulous series.

Jenny: God knows I’ve put in enough time structuring the damn thing.

Lani: Peri’s awesome. The whole cast is really great. I love Liz’s push-pull with them. Yeah, but it’s going to pay off. That’s why your books are so good; you put so much into them to make them work. And mysteries are so tough.

Jenny: Heroines are so essential for you and me. But for Krissie, it’s the hero. So let’s talk about heroes. Nice segue, huh?

Lani Very nice.

To be continued tomorrow. . .

Lucy March’s A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin’s Press on January 31, 2012.

Kristina Douglas’s Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.

Jenny Crusie’s You Again and Lavender’s Blue will be out from St. Martin’s Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody’s guess.

First, it’s the dramatic return of Popcorn Dialogues! Jenny and I watched The Thin Man, then talked about it. I’m excited because I know very little about mystery, and while Jenny claims she doesn’t, either, she’s just being modest. It’s not false modesty, she really believes it, but she’s brilliant. Come learn at her feet with me.

Also returning today – StoryWonk Daily! It’s a craft-heavy week this week with building blocks of structure – we start talking about beats, and finish talking about acts. And Parks and Rec. Gonna be a great week! Today’s show is up! Also, don’t forget to check out the Revision class; it starts Sunday, so this is your last chance to sign up!

Yesterday, I blogged at Re-Fab, where Jenny Crusie and Anne Stuart (also known as Krissie) are changing their lives in fascinating ways, while I watch on, eating Pepperidge Farm Brussels cookies and shouting, “I’ll catch up later!” Hey. Everyone can’t be perfect.

And today, because it’s Monday, I’m blogging over at The Bettyverse, where I wrestle with the philosophical implications of being a hipster douchebag.

Also, A Little Night Magic is in stores January 31st, so there are a flurry of giveaways out there, including this one. Usually, my publishers give me a bunch of books and I have to give them away myself; St. Martin’s hasn’t sent me any yet, but that’s okay, because they and all the other wonderful people running these things are doing the work for me, and I LOVE THEM ALL. I promise to do a giveaway as soon as I get some copies, but in the meantime, I’ll keep you guys posted.

Also, for you audiobook nuts, there will be an audio version at Audible, which should be on their site on January 31st. If you haven’t gotten a membership at Audible yet, they do offer a free trial, and I suggest you take them up on it; even if you cancel, they let you keep the book. I’ve been a member since 2001, and I just love them.

That covers it for today! I’ll be back with more soon!

This is the second in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Krissie has been writing supernatural romances for a long time, and now as Kristina Douglas she’s started a new series about fallen angels, The Fallen (Raziel, Demon, and Warrior, out in April 2012). Jenny came to the supernatural late with The Unfortunate Miss Fortunes (written with Krissie and Eileen Dreyer) and Dogs and Goddesses (written with Krissie and Lucy) and Wild Ride (written with Bob Mayer). Lucy’s newest book is also a supernatural romance: A Little Night Magic, in stores on January 31. This time, we got together in our Three Goddesses chat room to talk about what we’ve learned writing the things that go bump in the night. The chat has been heavily edited to cut out excursions into TV criticism, moaning about the business, and a short argument we had about French Kiss, but otherwise, this is what we said:

[Lucy and Jenny got to the chat first, so we started without Krissie]
Jenny: So, Lucy March, what made you decide to write supernatural in A Little Night Magic?

Lucy: I wanted to stretch out, work in that fantasy space. I felt like I was treading the same water writing what I was writing. I wanted to write a first person series, with Liv as the protagonist, do some long form storytelling, but that’s not what the publisher wanted. So, I caved, because they said, “We’ll pay you,” and at heart, I’m a whore. Eventually, I want to do a long form first person series, though.

Jenny: I like what’s happening with your series, though. I LOVE Stacy Easter. [Note to readers: Stacy is a supporting character in A Little Night Magic which is Liv’s book, but she gets her own story in the book Lucy’s writing now.]

Lucy: Stacy’s great. I don’t have the hero down so well, but Stacy’s very fun. It all comes down to character, no matter what you’re writing, though. Magic, werewolves, vampires, ghosts. In the end, it’s the same dance. Character, character, character.

Jenny: I agree. But still, the supernatural is vastly different from the ordinary world, which I really like. I felt like I should put a post-it on the computer that said, “Swing Wide” because I was getting trapped in my own inch of Ohio ivory. The supernatural conflict seems so much juicier to me right now.

Lucy: Well, the conflict is in that elevated space. You get to work with metaphor and heightened circumstances, and it’s really fun.

Jenny: It’s hard to get good juicy conflict in modern romance story-telling. You can do it, but you have to work at it. Ghosts, that’s good conflict. Demons were good, too. I miss the demons.

Lucy: There’s lots of great stuff to be found in the paranormal. You get into metaphor and mythology, and it’s rich psychologically.

Jenny: Great metaphors, but they have to work as character, too, as you said. So what’s the hardest thing about writing the supernatural for you?

Lucy: I think figuring out the rules. I’m not sure I did a great job of explaining that in A Little Night Magic because I hate explaining things. So, for a writer who hates explaining, I think it can be a challenge.

Jenny: I don’t think you should explain. I think you show the reader the world and let her figure it out. Otherwise it’s there’s-gonna-be-a-quiz exposition. I think it’s like talking to kids about sex. They really don’t want to know everything, they just want to know enough to get them through whatever made the question arise. Explaining the whole mythology is just tedious for a reader.

Lucy: Yes, which I hate. But it’s a tough line to ride. You want to give the reader a solid base to stand on, but I HATE those scenes where they sit and ‘splain.

[Krissie enters the chat room]

Jenny: KRISSIE!

Lucy: KRISSIE! Yay!

Kristina: Jesus!

Jenny: No, just Jenny and Lucy.

Lucy: But we’re close.

Kristina: lemme catch up. Keep tlaking

Jenny: No problem, I’m good at tlaking. Sometimes I tlak for hours.

Lucy: It’s good for the soul.

Jenny: Which reminds me, I got you both vibrators for Christmas.

Lucy: LOL! What a segue!

Jenny: For your necks. Neck strain from typing. Really. I don’t think they’d work other places.

Lucy:. Heh heh heh…

Jenny: Seriously. Where were we? Right, the supernatural.

Lucy: Yes, the explaining of the supernatural.

Jenny: So I’m against explaining. It’s one of the reasons I like a protagonist who doesn’t know what’s going on. Because she’s going to ask the questions the readers have.

Lucy: Yeah, but then you still have those hell scenes where she sits down and someone tells her what’s going on. I did my best to make it a part of the story, but I found it challenging.

Jenny: Yes, but nobody wanted to tell Andie in Maybe This Time anything, she had to dig for it. Conflict scenes.

Lucy: What do you think is the hardest part of writing supernatural?

Jenny: Oh, I’m with you: working out the rules. I had a reviewer on Amazon bitch at me for making up my own ghost rules. Evidently there’s a set of ghost rules already in place. Which is odd because I researched that and that’s where I got my rules.

Kristina: I think that is the hardest part of writing paranormal. ‘Splaining the rules without info dump.

Jenny: May told Andie things, but she only gave her part of the rules. Alice gave her some, but Alice was 8. I think. Andie had to dig and discover for herself. Oh, wait, I did do some explanation: there was that scene where Dennis told Andie the six kinds of ghosts. But I think that was an interaction not infodump because Andie was arguing with him. I figure if there’s a different inexperienced protagonist in each book, the reader can learn along with her.

Lucy: I didn’t feel like there were hell scenes in MTT. You did a good job with that. You can make the explanation part of the story, but you have to work at that. I tried in A Little Night Magic, but I didn’t want to bog things down, and I may have erred on the side of “let ‘em figure it out for themselves.”

Kristina: It’s even worse in a series. Because you have to do it every fucking time for people who haven’t read earlier books, and you have to keep in mind what you said in the earlier books — the rules you make. For instance, in WARRIOR, which comes out in April, my hero lies to the heroine. He’s the Archangel Michael, but I get to make up my own rules, and he lies to her. Unfortunately I set up in an earlier book that the Fallen Angels who make up the world can’t easily lie. Can you imagine writing an entire book with an honest hero? Fortunately I skimmed back and I didn’t come right out and say they can’t lie. One of the earlier heroes says he can’t, but of course he was lying.

Jenny: Krissie, was that the hardest part about writing the supernatural for you? I know you’ve done supernatural before.

Lucy:You’ve written everything, baby.

Kristina: Remembering world building. (I had ghosts in Night of the Phantom and time travel and selkies in series romances). It’s the rules.

Jenny: Rules?

Kristina: Not tough designing the world, tough remembering. Making things consistent. You know, can you go out in sunlight, whose blood can you drink, where do the wings go, etc.

Jenny: That’s one of my fears with the Liz series (not supernatural): what if I get to the fourth book and something I said in the first book boxes me in?

Kristina: You can’t make one rule and then break it later on because the plot calls for it. You get trapped. I tried to write a bible but lost it in my office.

Lucy: People do wikis; little cross-referencing wikipedias that keep everything straight. I haven’t figured out how to do that, but with a series, it seems like a good idea. A story bible.

Kristina: Yup, that’s what I need.

Jenny: Ooooh, good, something else I can do instead of writing. I’m there.

Kristina: How do they organize it?

Lucy: You know how in Wikipedia, if one article mentions something else that’s in Wikipedia, it links? It’s like that. I don’t know; I’ve tried a couple of times but never been able to wrap my mind around it.

Jenny: So we need a wiki for the fairy tale book we’re going to do together. Cool.

Lucy: Yes, that would be great. I think Alastair understands them; maybe he can explain to us.

Jenny: I’m only going to do three ghost books, so I don’t need a wiki. I think. Maybe This Time, You Again, and Haunting Alice. But I could use a wiki for the Liz books.

Kristina: What I love about writing supernatural is that you can write anything you damned please. The sky’s the limit. You’re always tapping into fairytales, even if it’s not as obvious as Grimm, etc.

Jenny: That scares me. I like limits. That’s why I liked using Henry James’s ghosts. I like riffing off of what’s gone before.

Lucy: I love the richness of it; the layers that the paranormal gives you.

Kristina: And it sort of brings you back to literal campfires from the beginning of man all the way to Girl Scouts and telling stories.

Jenny: Which is what all storytelling is, really.

Kristina: I love limits, because you can go wild within those limits. It’s why I write genre. Cracks me up that someone on Amazon said “no, that’s not what real ghosts do.”

Jenny: Everybody’s a critic. And I researched it I read half a dozen books and had dinner with Katherine Ramsland. I’d have had dinner with Katherine anyway, I like her, but we talked ghosts the whole time. She’s the Court TV ghost expert. She’s on television. Jeez.

Lucy: Well, yeah, but it’s GHOSTS. No one knows how ghosts work. They’re ghosts. Not microwaves.

Jenny: I don’t know how microwaves work.

Kristina: I don’t want to know how microwaves work.

Lucy:. Yes, but SOMEONE does. And if you wrote how microwaves worked and were wrong, someone could call you on it.

Jenny: I’m good with microwaves being part of the supernatural. Explains that damn demon potato that almost burned the house down.

Lucy: There’s no scientific consensus on ghosts, and it’s fiction, so no one can tell you you’re wrong, unless they’re crazy, in which case… whatever.

Kristina: Here’s a question. Why do you think people are so into paranormal/supernatural right now? There’s a real hunger for it.

Lucy:I think it’s because paranormal accesses a part of human psychology that you can’t get into as easily in a realistic setting. Plus, super-powerful sex gods who want YOU. That, too.

Kristina: But why do readers want it now?

Jenny: I called this twenty years ago. It’s the same reaction to an age of science and reason that happened at the end of the nineteenth. Romanticism as a reaction to the Enlightenment. Paranormal as a reaction to the computer age.

Lucy: I can see that, definitely.

Jenny: I was an academic then. I thought like that. But it’s true: literature goes in cycles.

Lucy: The more scientific we get in our approach to the world, the more we crave something that speaks to the ethereal.

Jenny: Yep. When all the mysteries are solved we look for new mysteries.

Kristina: I think you’ve got a point. But I think it’s something more visceral as well. I think it’s a reaction to how overwhelming life is. How big. A lot of which comes from the internet, etc.

Jenny: The thing that goes bump in the night? Yeah. I think the thing that goes bump is always there. Horror fiction is always there. It’s the popularity that shifts.

Lucy: But that balance makes sense. When the worldview gets too focused in one area, our ideals in fiction reach for the opposite.

Jenny: That and we want epic heroes.

Kristina: And life is hard. And not fair. If life is hard and not fair then changing the rules i.e. supernatural stuff gives us hope.

Lucy: Something to believe in.

Jenny: What we really need is intelligent congress-people, but what we want in our fiction is Indiana Jones facing down the Nazis and capturing the Ark. Plus there really are some things out there that we can’t explain.

Lucy: Well, fiction in all its forms, paranormal or not, has that element of restoring justice to the world.

Kristina: Intelligent congress-people is speculative fiction.

Jenny: Depends on the fiction, but the kind of fiction I like does that. I just meant that what we really need does not make for great storytelling, it’s what we want that has the juice.

Lucy: Real life is frustrating. The bad guys win and the good guys lose; fiction fixes that for us. Paranormal fiction fixes that in a big way.

Jenny: Although I lie: The West Wing was excellent. My point was that larger-than-life villains—Spike, the Mayor, Voldemort–make for larger-than-life heroes. One of the reasons I loved doing The Unfortunate Miss Fortunes was Xan. She chewed the scenery, but she could do that because she was larger than the scenery.

Kristina: Yup.

Lucy: I think the appeal of paranormal is cyclical, like the appeal of every genre, but I also think there’s something bigger underneath. I think we feel the pull that the readers feel; the need to tell those big stories as well as read them. In the end, we’re readers, too, and we tell the stories we want to read, but can’t find.

Jenny: Right, we didn’t decide to write the supernatural because it was popular, we did it because we were drawn to it. Or somebody else drew us to it. We all came to it in different ways for different reasons.

Kristina: Yup.

Jenny: I started when Krissie and Eileen and I did The Unfortunate Miss Fortunes. It wasn’t a natural for me. I actually had to go back and put in the supernatural stuff. I had to keep telling myself, “She’s a witch. She’s going to do things differently.” Same with the goddesses when we did Dogs and Goddesses. I could never remember what Shar’s power was. Actually, I don’t remember now. Oh, finishing things because she was the Mesopotamian Atropos. That was a fun power. Wish I had it.

Kristina: I think I started waaay back just throwing in stuff because the book called for it. Not centering the book around the supernatural, but bringing some in.

Jenny: What was your first supernatural book?

Kristina: I think Night of the Phantom. The hero’s father was a ghost. At least, I think it was his father.

Lucy: I started by working magical realism into the books; the kinds of things that, in the end, the reader could choose to believe was psychic or magical or fate, but another reader seeing things a different way could see it as coincidence, and still the story would work in both worlds. Then I just decided to cross into real paranormal.

Jenny: Oh, I love magical realism. I tried to put it into Bet Me, but Jen had me take most of it out. She was right; I went too far and it unbalanced the book. But it was fun.

Lucy: Well, you had that lovely sense of Fate in Bet Me. I thought it was magical. Magical realism is really fun, but it’s hard to ride that line.

Jenny: Fate was the antagonist in Bet Me. That was fun.

Kristina: I love magical realism as well. I actually read 100 Years of Solitude when it came out, loong ago. Probably had an influence.

Jenny: Like Water for Chocolate had a big influence on Bet Me. Especially the middle drafts. So writing the supernatural felt natural for both of you?

Kristina: I only write what feels natural. I’m a very instinctive writer.

Lucy: It was a natural move for me. I’ve always been fascinated with the spiritual/magical side of life. I think there are lots of things out there we can’t quite explain, and I find that really interesting.

Jenny: The first three times I wrote the supernatural, it didn’t feel natural but I was either collaborating or copying Henry James so I didn’t have any choice. Which was good.

Lucy: I love the role of belief in magic.

Jenny: I love the role of belief, period.

Kristina: yup

Jenny: That whole if-you-build-it-they-will-come thing. Jump and the net will be there.

Lucy: Absolutely.

Jenny: That’s so important in romance. You can’t be safe, you just have to fling yourself into it.

Kristina: Absolutely. Which is why writers who play it safe make me crazy.

Jenny: None of my heroines ever want to fling themselves anywhere.

Kristina: No, of course, they don’t. If they did there wouldn’t be tension.

Jenny: Well, they’re all such control freaks. Playing it safe in fiction is the worst thing you can do.

Kristina: It’s a mortal sin.

Jenny: So here’s a question about writing the supernatural: You have to let people know up front that the book is supernatural even if the protagonist doesn’t know it. That’s tough. I ended up having North tell Andie that the last nanny said the house was haunted. That was at least a hint, even if the reader thinks the last nanny was an idiot.

Kristina: Sunshine was interesting that way. You get the first chapter before you realize this is an alternative universe.

Jenny: You Again is the same way. Rose invites a medium to stay and she arrives in the first scene, but the ghost doesn’t show up for awhile. I’m hoping that’s going to be enough of a clue. Of course, when anybody’s who’s read MTT sees Isolde and Alice, that’s going to be a tip-off, but I can’t assume that’s all readers. So how did you guys do it?

Kristina: In general I think I tend to have an ordinary woman suddenly noticing extraordinary circumstances. Sort of a play on the Hitchcock thing, of an ordinary person thrust into extraordinary circumstances. My heroines are just living their own lives when they realize that person was a ghost. Or that she’s dead.

Jenny: I love that. “Oh, my god, I’m dead.” That’s a hook. It has to be in the first scene, right?

Kristina: Depends on how central the magic is. If it’s just a touch of magic then it doesn’t have to show up right away. I like hints and then suddenly, oh, my god, vampires are real kind of thing.

Lucy: I think you need to set up the promise of the book in the first scene; it’s tough to suddenly pull someone into an alternate universe without even a clue. In A Little Night Magic, Davina tells Liv in the first scene: “You’re magic.” Liv doesn’t believe it, but it’s right there, and you know something’s up.

Jenny: I agree. The reader has to know right off that bat that there’s something hinky going on.

Kristina: Plus, the title. That’s kind of a hint

Jenny: You could read “A Little Night Magic” as sexual. And I’m amazed that you didn’t, Krissie.

Lucy: LOL, I hadn’t really thought of it as sexual. I was just playing off A Little Night Music.

Jenny: So I’m the slut in the trio now?

Kristina: Yeah, I was thinking of A Little Night Music, too. You slut.

Lucy: Well, I didn’t want to say anything, but you’re the one buying everyone vibrators for Christmas…

Kristina: I wrote a book where the heroine is terrified that the hero is a vampire. He’s not, but she spends most of the book trying to catch him. Then he bites her. Great book.

Jenny: Instead of “And then he kissed me,” it’s “And then he bit me.”

Kristina: Yup. It’s a hoot. Or course then she gets royally porked.

Jenny: Porked?

Lucy: LOL, royally porked. Which book, Krissie?

Kristina: The Demon Count. I think that and its sequel will be out as an book in late February.

Lucy: I’m assuming you mean fucked?

Kristina: Yeah, don’t you know the word porked?

Lucy: I don’t think I’ve heard it used in that context before, but I figured it out.

Jenny: I got that part, it was the usage that threw me. Royally porked. I saw the King Pig from Angry Birds. I need some brain bleach.

Lucy: Some things can’t be unseen.

Kristina: You know, I never could envision the beast with two backs.

Jenny: I’m sure I can find a picture somewhere. It’s actually two people . . .

Kristina: Yeah, but one back is usually on the mattress. Unless they’re sitting astride. But that’s not common

Lucy: Or against the wall.

Jenny: Or up against the wall.

Kristina: Ah, yes. Or on the kitchen counter.

Jenny: We’re supposed to be talking about the supernatural.

Kristina: I went through a big phase of kitchen counters.

Lucy: Unless they’re in a pool…

Jenny: The Supernatural. Jesus.

Kristina: Pools. Yum

Jenny: THE SUPERNATURAL. It’s like herding ducks.

Lucy: LOL, okay. THE SUPERNATURAL.

Jenny: Let’s regroup. We’ve talked about why we write supernatural, and the importance of tipping the reader off, and world building, right? Anything else about THE SUPERNATURAL?

Kristina: I’m loving my angels.. My brain is full of tangles of stories.

Jenny: My brain is full of people making smartass remarks to each other.

Kristina: With masses of sexual tension while they make smart ass remarks.

Jenny: Not so much since menopause. Now all they want to do is crafts.

Kristina: Plays are nothing but people talking to each other, basically. and plays that are comedies are people making smart ass comments. Nothing wrong with that.

Jenny: No, there has to be more. There has to be Stuff under it all.

Kristina: Shakespeare is people making smart ass comments (in some of them).

Lucy:. Dialogue is action. As long as they want something and they’re using dialogue to try to get it, you’re good.

Kristina: Of course. And you have stuff under it. Don’t you think Shakespeare does?

Jenny: Shakespeare always has Stuff. Which brings me back to THE SUPERNATURAL. It’s not enough just to have things that go bump in the night, there has to be Stuff underneath. Right?

Kristina: Yes. It has to speak to a basic human need/fear/something.

Lucy: Shakespeare wrote supernatural. How’s that for keeping it on topic, Crusie? I’m here for you.

Jenny: You’re fabulous, Lani. Good girl.

Kristina: Teacher’s pet

Jenny: I love you, too, Krissie.

Kristina: sniff.

Lucy: Of course. Everyone loves Krissie.

Jenny: I think the way the characters react to the supernatural has to reveal something about who they are, too. And what they believe. Once you start messing around with reality, you’d better have a belief system in place.

Kristina: Beneath the supernatural it has to answer questions like life after death or why things are scary and how love is bigger than death.

Jenny: Right. You can’t just say, “You know what’s cool? Vampires,” and run with that. I thought the Buffy and Angel series did that part well. These myths and legends have powers because they’ve been around so long. Attention must be paid to that.

Kristina: You betcha. Part of the great conscious/unconscious Joseph Campbell shit. They play out over and over again.

Lucy: Well, the myths and legends speak to something much deeper in human nature, and human psychology. You’re tapping into something real and very powerful when you use those myths in the writing.

Jenny: I mean, vampires drink blood. That’s not a socially acceptable thing to do. So they can go against their natures and hit the local Red Cross and drink from bottles, but it’s not who they are. You can’t slap a band aid on the vampire myth and say, “And now they’re nice people.” It emasculates the myth. Neuters the myth? Although the vampire myth is pretty male.

Lucy: That’s the whole point of writing vampires, to access that deeper mythology, and draw on that power for your story. So if you neuter the vampire–unless you’re doing a Spike-style story about how it doesn’t make him less dangerous in the end anyway–you take away the value of telling that story to begin with.

Kristina: Vampires take the life essence of the one they love. They suck it down, draining them, and the mythology is what do they give back? How does it make a bond and not a predator? Of course, I like predators.

Jenny: And mimes.

Kristina: Bitch. He was the villain, you know.

Jenny: Oh, I thought he was the hero. Never mind, carry on.

Lucy: Even Krissie can’t make a hero out of a mime. The myth exists to talk about vampires metaphorically, not realistically. If you take away the danger, you take away the resonance.

Kristina: I explained a few years ago that I wrote emotional vampires. That my killer heroes were a kind of vampire.

Jenny:Absolutely on the emotional vampires. Metaphorical vampires. But if you’re going to write the real thing, there’s gonna be blood.

Kristina: It’s like the glittery hoo-ha. Having the perfect blood. Did either of you see or read Twilight?

Jenny: I think I’m too old for Twilight.

Kristina: The whole point was it was “her” blood. He smelled it and couldn’t resist. It was the perfect blood for him.

Jenny: Pheromones. Or however you spell that.

Kristina: I like stalker vampires.

Jenny: The stalker isn’t romantic. Although John Cusack with that boombox was technically stalking. I like my vampires smart-mouthed and laid back. Which is why I don’t write vampires. Whatever else you’re gonna say about vampires, they’re intense.

Kristina: When you say stalker, it throws everything into a nasty mode. I like predatory. Coming after you. Hot and gorgeous. Yum.

Jenny: Predatory isn’t nasty?

Kristina: It is, but not if you tap into the myth part of it. Like the rape fantasy. You play around with it. Maybe because there’s a real fear and if you turn it into a fantasy it takes the fear away? I don’t know. I just know I like a lot of politically incorrect fantasies. It’s part of a basic myth that works for me.

Jenny: Oh, right, the rape metaphor, being overwhelmed, ravished, so it’s not your fault or responsibility. By George Clooney.

Kristina: Or Brad Pitt. Or Spike. Spike is predatory. Deliciously so. That kind of predatory.

Jenny: Yeah, he is. But he’s also stalking the Slayer, not Willow.

Lucy: Well, stalking is in the eye of the beholder. In Twilight, she loved him, so it wasn’t stalking to her – it was him being protective. Actually, stalking is in the eye of the stalked, I mean.

Kristina: Yup. Stalking definitely is in the eye of the stalked. If there’s an icky feeling it won’t work. And yes, stalking the Slayer, not Willow.

Jenny: I did that in Crazy For You. The hero and the bad guy did essentially the same thing; the difference was that she wanted the hero. That’s another problem with the supernatural: it upsets the balance of power. You have to make a heroine who’s really strong and smart because she’s up against things who have powers she doesn’t.

Kristina: She has to find her own powers. Create her own powers. To fight these larger than life powers.

Jenny: I mean, it makes for great antagonists, but your heroine can’t just go all limp and be swept away. She has to fight as an equal, even if it takes her awhile to get there. She has to be Buffy-esque.

Kristina: Yes.

Lucy: She has to have power, it may not be the same power, but she has to be able to stand up to what she’s around.

Jenny: I agree. I also may be babbling at this point. Is there anything else about the supernatural you guys wanted to talk about?

Kristina: Nope. I think I’ll go back to sleep.

Jenny: LOL. Lani?

Lucy: I’m good. And Krissie needs sleep.

Kristina: Love you guys. Nighty-night!

Lucy:. Love you, too! Night!

Jenny: Thank you all for playing and good night!

Coming up in January in Three Goddess Chats: Brainstorming with Collage and Soundtracks, Heroes and Heroines, Writing First Chapters, and analyzing Book Covers.

Lucy March’s A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin’s Press on January 31, 2012.

Kristina Douglas’s Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.

Jenny Crusie’s You Again and Lavender’s Blue will be out from St. Martin’s Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody’s guess.

This is the first in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (Anne Stuart), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet every now and then in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Krissie doesn’t write romantic comedy so this is actually a Two-Goddess post, but she’ll be here tomorrow for the supernatural romance chat. This one is Lucy and Jenny trying to synthesize everything they learned watching romantic comedy movies for nine months for their Popcorn Dialogues podcasts, although they tend to veer off into talking about writing romance in general.

Jenny: So what have we learned from nine months of PopD, Lucy? First: character. Character, character, character.

Lucy: Character is sacred. Always.

Jenny: In a rom com, it’s because it sells why we should want these two characters to be together, and why we care desperately if they’re not. In It Happened One Night, you really want them together, especially after the scene in the motel where they pretend to be married. I think that’s key, making the reader really need for these two people to be together.

Lucy: Absolutely. And how is the humor handled. It should come from character, not from jokes. That’s a comedy with a romance tacked on.

Jenny: A shared sense of humor is one way to show they’re in sync. They’re laughing at the same things. Think It Happened One Night, Desk Set, Two Weeks Notice. That’s one way to keep the reader wanting them together: they’re not just working together, they’re fun to be with, both for each other and for the reader.

Lucy: Laughing at the same things – not at each other. No humiliation (Two Weeks Notice, I’m looking at you.)

Jenny: Yes, but HE didn’t humiliate her.

Lucy: You’re right; he didn’t humiliate her, the writers did. Grrrr. If you’re talking about writing romantic comedy, I think you need to have an awareness of where the humor comes from.

Jenny: If we’re talking about the relationship, that was a good one. They understood each other. And not just the sense of humor. They had a short hand when they talked. The whole beets-beets-beets thing. So what have we learned from this, Dorothy? We have to care about the people. Which means the people have to be human (Allegra and Albert, not Hitch and Whosis from Hitch)

Lucy: Sara. Hitch and Sara. Not that we cared. Anyway, one of the big oh-my-god moments while we were doing PopD for me was that the characters had to work well together. It wasn’t enough to have I’m hot-you’re-hot-let’s-be-hot-together. I wanted to see them working together and enjoying each other, being good apart but better together.

Jenny:Yes. That’s one way the relationship develops: working together, shared sense of humor, establishment of in-jokes/private language.

Lucy: It Happened One Night was the first time I consciously realized that, but we saw it in a lot of other movies as well, and it was always great. It’s important to have obstacles, have antagonists and things getting in the way, but if two people default to a positive, strong and competent working relationship, it’s wonderful.

Jenny:If they stick together when they hit the bumps, that’s great.

Lucy: Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy in Desk Set. When they went on the roof to talk business and eat their sandwiches, it was a thing of beauty.

Jenny: I think that’s why the Big Misunderstanding never works. If they were really in sync, they’d solve the Big Misunderstanding right away.

Lucy: Yeah, when obstacles make the relationship stronger, it’s wonderful. When they pull together instead of apart.

Jenny: Desk Set is a shining example of that Working Together Rule.

Lucy: That’s exactly why the Big Misunderstanding—along with The Big Lie—drives me crazy. I don’t want them together in that case.

Jenny:Oh, lies are off the table. I hate liars. So let’s get practical. How did you use that in A Little Night Magic. No spoilers.

Lucy: It’s funny, because I was writing A Little Night Magic while we were doing PopD, so I was constantly looking at that relationship with Liv and Tobias. They actually worked together, so they had a nice rapport, even in the first scene when an unexpected customer comes in and sets off the events of the book. He’s a short-order cook, and she’s a waitress. But when the magic hits, they work well with that, too, and the understood each other. There’s a moment in the climax that I just love, which I won’t talk about because it’s in the climax and SPOILERS, but they read each other without words and it’s that working together that saves the day.

Jenny: That was a great relationship right from the start. I was always rooting for Tobias, even when you were going to have Liv end up with somebody else. I just loved the way they worked and joked together in that first scene.

Lucy: Yeah, I went through a lot of variations on that book! But Tobias won out; everyone was rooting for him!

Jenny: Talk about that first scene, how you established that relationship through work.

Lucy: The opening scene starts with Liv and Tobias closing up together. They do their work quietly, while having an intense discussion about something else entirely… actually, about Liv’s feelings for Tobias, which she acknowledges to him right from the start. It’s because she’s crazy about him and thinks he’ll never feel the same about her that she’s leaving town, which has him upset. And that, of course, moves us into the “Always Honest” part of the discussion…

Jenny: I loved how comfortable they were with each other, right from the start. And the working together thing, serving people food, which is nurturing and not the way romance heroes are usually introduced. Tobias is just a great guy and a great match for Liv. I can’t believe you though she was going to end up with somebody else.

Lucy: They also work really well together when it comes to the magic; he knows a lot more about it than she does, has more experience with it, so that’s where they do really well. So, your characters in You Again, how are they working together? It’s Zelda and Sam, right?

Jenny: Well, it’s Zelda and somebody. The name “Sam” isn’t working, possibly because I already wrote a Sam. But yes, Zelda and her Significant Other work together in You Again. It’s a three part structure, and in the first part, Zelda doesn’t want anything to do with him, but they have to go grocery shopping together, and the way they work that is a good foreshadowing, I think. They’re shopping for a family dinner, and the family is nuts, so they have to figure out what’s going to make everybody happy plus please a very fussy cook. It was fun, mostly because I could move them from not-in-sync–neither one of them wants to grocery shop–to catching each other’s rhythms and laughing. Then in the second and third acts they’re working together to find out who Zelda’s father is and who’s trying to kill her while also working out a relationship that’s become sexual and compelling. So it’s an escalating work relationship that echoes the sexual relationship. I love work relationships: they’re really fun to do because it’s such a great structure to build the romance on, beyond the damn-you’re-hot method which doesn’t really work without that emotional component.

Lucy: Yeah, you see so much of the “I’m hot, you’re hot, let’s be hot together,” thing that I wonder who that works for. It has to be about who they are; being hot doesn’t make a good couple. Something so simple like grocery shopping—or the beets-beets-beets thing in Two Weeks Notice—can give you so much insight into how two people work together. It doesn’t even have to be the focus of the scene, it’s just how they work together, how you show the relationship growing.

Jenny:Well, being hot works in real life for Friday night. And in reality, we are first attracted to the physical. But that lasts about two seconds once the other person speaks or acts. Mel Gibson is still technically good-looking, but he makes my skin crawl. William Macy is not handsome, but I’ll watch him in anything. Personality. And when you have two people with very attractive personalities, then you have fun watching them connect.

Lucy: Yeah, which is why I can’t get behind a whole relationship that’s based on pretty. And it’s also why, I think, the Beauty and the Beast trope works so well, because it’s about what’s underneath. Of course, in the end, he’s hot, but… what are you gonna do?

Jenny: I loved Liv because she was so positive without being a Pollyanna. She was just a good person, taking care of her customers. And then Tobias was another really good person, working hard, looking out for Liv. They were relaxed together, and it was just lovely to be with them on the page.

Lucy: And in a book, what we really see are the personalities together. A reader can make them look however they want in her head; when you’re reading and getting into someone’s deep thoughts, the personality has to be there.

Jenny: Well, the thing is, in the end, the loved one is hot even if he doesn’t transform into a prince. He’s hot or she’s hot because you’re in love.

Lucy: Absolutely; it’s the love that makes them hot. Which is why it’s fun to work with female characters who have, like most of us, body image issues. When he loves her not despite her looks, but because it’s part of the whole package that is her, it’s wonderful.

Jenny: Exactly. “She’s really cute” on the page is not the same as watching Emma Stone shut down Justin Timberlake with “It’s not you, it’s me. I don’t like you anymore.” Although come to think of it, that’s speech again. If she’d been a humorless bitch, I wouldn’t have liked her even though she’s beautiful. Speech and action. The whole looks thing is a non-starter in fiction anyway because readers imagine their own character images. I can say a hero is not that good-looking, but they’ll imagine him handsome anyway because he’s got a great personality.

Lucy: So, you have an advantage; you’ve read A Little Night Magic, and I haven’t read any of the new You Again. Sam and Zelda are great characters; how are their personalities coming out on the page?

Jenny: Do you realize I started that book in 2003?

Lucy: I know, and I adored the stuff you wrote then. I still remember it; Zelda and James (he was James then) sitting on a roof with their backs against each other. After eight years, I remember that. That’s good writing.

Jenny: Oh, the backs thing was when they were teenagers; it was a memory. Wow, you’re good.

Lucy: No, you’re good. I don’t remember just anything. So, how are Zelda and Sam different now?

Jenny:Well, Sam is getting a name change again. You know it’s tough coming up with names after twenty-some books. I don’t know how Krissie does now that she’s well over a hundred stories. Anyway, the hero used to be long-suffering James, a lawyer. Then he was smart-mouthed Sam, a hostage negotiator because, as he said, with his family he got his training early. Now, I don’t know, I just can’t seem to get him. I can see him, I just can’t quite get him. The good thing is, he’s loosened up, much more relaxed. Zelda, on the other hand, has tightened up: before she didn’t want things. She didn’t want to go to Rosemore, she didn’t want to stay, she didn’t want . . . Negative goals. So I had a Schmoo for a hero and a negative heroine. Surprisingly, they didn’t really connect on the page. Also, not funny. And now, no name.

Lucy: Names are critical. I think people who aren’t writers can be surprised by that. I once had a character I couldn’t write until I changed her name from Emma to Flynn. And you had that with Maybe This Time, you had to change Emmeline to Andie, right?

Jenny: Yes. I really had to wrestle that character to the ground, but the name made all the difference. Character again.

Lucy: Zelda and Sam knew each other before, when they were kids, right? I love a story with history. Does that familiarity help them work well together?

Jenny:Well, the whole I-loved-you-once is really powerful because it means they connected before so their connection this time is going to have a path to follow. But you still have to show it on the page, show why they connect. In this case, it’s because they’re both fixers, they take care of things. That’s a really lonely job if there’s one of you, but if there’s two, it becomes a power structure, a bond, and the work brings you closer. It’s that working together thing again.

Lucy: Which brings us to another topic for building great romcom characters – competence. Zelda and Sam are both good at what they do, and that matters. Seeing how people conduct themselves in their arenas is really important.

Jenny: I agree: what characters do makes a difference. (Mimes, anyone?) I love that Tobias and Liv work to feed people. I usually pay attention to what my characters do, but the whole PopD thing made me pay attention to how their careers work off of each other.

Lucy: Well, it feeds in to who they are. Hildy and Walter from His Girl Friday are a great example of that.

Jenny: Oh, absolutely, their working relationship is key. I love that way of evolving a relationship in rom com. You nailed it coming out of the gate in A Little Night Magic: Liv and Tobias feed people and take care of the town. That’s so powerful.

Lucy: With Tobias and Liv, their jobs are about being part of the community. They both live at the heartbeat of the community, and when the community is in trouble, that’s when they come out together to save it. It was fun having them in that role.

Jenny: I loved the fact that the pancake house is the center of the town. People go there to eat and to talk to Liv and Tobias. So it’s my two favorite things in romance plots: community and working together.

Lucy: So what else do we know about romantic comedy? I think where the humor comes from is a big thing. It has to come from character, I think. Like your line from Sam: He got his hostage negotiator training in early from his family. That says so much about him, and it’s so funny, but it’s not a joke.

Jenny: Absolutely, humor has to come from the characters’ sense of humor. Humor can be dangerous. You can’t have your romcom protagonists making fun of anybody unless he or she REALLY deserves it. Makes them too mean. But humor as a defense works just fine; they don’t get mad, they crack jokes. The big thing about that in rom com, I think, is that shared sense of humor.

Lucy: One of my favorite scenes in A Little Night Magic is when Tobias is trying to feed waffles to Liv. She keeps eating, because they’re delicious, but arguing with herself the whole way about the calories and how much she’ll have to work out to make up for it, and he just looks at her and says, “Is this the way women really think?” and she informs him that it’s varsity-level self-loathing, and Tobias just makes her eat. It was really fun, because it was so Liv, and it’s fun to have that banter which isn’t based on mutual antagonism.

Jenny: I love that. Well, men feeding women is always great, but that caretaking role. “Someone to watch over me,” but not in a controlling way, somebody who laughs with the heroine. It’s that shared moment that’s not sex but love. Sometimes I look at what I’m writing and think, “This isn’t funny. I’m supposed to be funny.” But you can’t add humor to a story, it’s either in there, in the characters, or it’s not.

Lucy: Humor is so tied to how you see the world. If they don’t find the same things funny, they won’t make it. It’s fun to have those moments where they’re getting to know each other, and they fall into the banter honestly, in sync. I can’t connect with the banter where people snipe at each other; it’s more fun when it’s done with affection.

Jenny: Absolutely. Banter is a co-operative thing, not a battle. It’s a game.

Lucy: You can’t focus on the jokes, and you can’t try to be funny. When you’re trying to be funny, you run the risk of sacrificing character for the joke–making them do something they’d never do, which breaks the book–and that isn’t funny in the end, anyway. Humor grows organically. Like mold.

Jenny: Don’t say mold. Mold is expensive. Say “like kudzu”. Or something. But I like the humor in conversations where they’re discussing/arguing, too. I think using humor while you’re trying to understand somebody is another way to communicate. “I don’t understand a damn thing you’ve told me, but I’m trying.”

Lucy: Oh, sorry. I touched on a soft spot for the new homeowner. Poor baby. I think having humor is great, but when you think, “I need to be funny!” you get in trouble. Or, at least, I do. I don’t try to be funny; my characters amuse me, and I catch it on the page sometimes. That’s the best I can do.

Jenny: There’s a scene in You Again where Sam hits on Zelda for the first time. And she explains to him that she finds him very attractive but the whole sex thing is such a hassle and she has enough problems right now, plus they’re not going to see each other again because she’s leaving tomorrow, so what’s the point? And Sam says, “What’s the point? Really?”

Lucy: See THAT’S funny, because it says so much about both of them.

Jenny: And they go from there and because of the conversation and the way it goes, Zelda really does weaken because he’s funny and he’s listening to her. She still says no, but it’s a good clue for the reader that Sam’s going to get to the point.

Lucy: And it also shows that Zelda has not had really good sex. Because I’m with Sam on that one.

Jenny: It’s not that Zelda hasn’t had good sex. It’s that she’s trapped in a house where people are trying to use her, and she’s fighting with her best friend, and she’s trying to find out who her dad is because she has a blood disease, and twenty people want her to fix something, and now this guy she hasn’t seen in fifteen years wants to have sex and that’s another damn thing she’d have to deal with. And she’s leaving the next day, so what’s the point? She just doesn’t have the time or the energy. Priorities.

Lucy: Still with Sam.

Jenny: I think they’re both right, but I like it that they end up seeing each other’s point, and that it moves them closer together than having a quickie in the pantry would.

Lucy: This is true, and it’s fun to be in on the ride from A to B. So, here’s another thing we got from the Romantic Comedy Store – the Big Declaration. What do you think about that?

Jenny: Well, I think there has to be a Big Declaration because that’s the climax. Not as sure about the Public Declaration. We had a discussion here on Argh about that, and I’m actually torn. I think some of the declarations in movies are stupid because they’re out of character, but I do think there’s value in stating your intentions before the community. That pretty much burns any break-up bridges.

Lucy: Here’s the thing about the Big Declaration and I’m not sure if this is legit, but it’s a thought I had. The man has to make the Big Declaration because unless he’s willing to say it big and say it in public (after a Rom Com Run, of course) it doesn’t mean anything. It’s just words, and a guy can say ‘I love you,’ but in order to be really believed, he has to show it. Again, not sure I agree with that entirely, but it’s a theory I’m playing with to explain why it’s so prevalent. What do you think?

Jenny: I agree. When Sam stands up at a family dinner and announces that he’s spending the rest of his life with Zelda, it complicates my plot nicely but it also says he’s serious. I like that in a guy. Of course, Zelda wishes he’d asked her first but it’s in character for him. The ones I object to are the ones that make no sense or that violate character. The ones that work, work because the story and the character demands it.

Lucy: Yes, many of them are out of character, or ridiculous, but I do think there’s a place for the Big Gesture/Public Declaration.

Jenny: Like the press conference declaration in Notting Hill. It’s the only way he can get to her, plus he’s hurt her badly, so even though he’s a very reticent guy, he’s going to have to put it out there to get her back. That one works for me. I’m not sure it’s always the man, though. There’s that thing from Crazy Time by Abigail Trafford about in every relationship, there is one who kisses and one who is kissed. And I think it’s powerful if it’s the one who is kissed who makes the declaration. It balances all the chasing.

Lucy: Seems like it’s usually the guy, isn’t it?

Jenny: Yeah, I think it is usually the guy, although there have been some awful Girl Declarations.

Lucy: Interesting. I always thought it had to be the guy because he wants sex, and he’s getting sex, and saying he loves her gets him the sex, so he’ll say it whether he means it or not. He needs the Public Declaration because that’s the proof. Again, not certain about it yet… just chewing it over.

Jenny: That whole I’ll-do-anything-to-get-sex is interesting; I’ve watched two TV shows in the past week that had that: an episode of The Big Bang Theory and an episode of The Unusuals. And in both cases, when the guy confessed he’d done something so she’d like him and go to bed with him, the girl said, “You’d have gotten sex anyway.” Although in The Big Bang Theory, Leonard goes on to say, “You’d have had sex with me after I made you watch a documentary on dams?” and Penny says, “No. No woman would.” I love that show.

Lucy: LOL. I need to watch that.

Jenny: So does Liv declare at the end or does Tobias? It’s no spoiler that they’re going to get together; it would be too cruel if they didn’t.

Lucy: Well, obviously they get together. And throughout the story, she’s in love with him and they both know it. What they don’t know is that he’s in love with her. There’s nothing terribly public, but he makes a big gesture at the end, which would be spoilery if I told you, and once he does that, there’s no question that he loves her. And she ends up declaring herself to him at the end, so they sort of share it. But he’s not big on talking, so it’s his actions that speak. He says he loves her, too, but that’s just words. I like for my characters to show it in their actions; that’s more important to me.

Jenny: Ah, Public Declaration Through Action. Much better.

Lucy: Action is really where the truth is. People lie with words, but actions don’t lie.

Jenny: Especially for guys.

Lucy: Right.

Jenny: So you mentioned the Rom Com Run awhile back. The big action finish. I never do those in fiction. Do you? The run to tell the other person he or she is loved?

Lucy: Yes, the Rom Com Run. At midnight. Extra points for New Year’s Eve. I can’t think of a time I’ve done that, no. But maybe it’s more in film than books? It’s a visual thing.

Jenny: You’re a Harry-Met-Sally slut, aren’t you? I still say that was stupid.

Lucy: But there’s that sudden realization, and I must tell you now!

Jenny: But we’re talking about action. I think it’s because the run is basically stupid.

Lucy: Yes, I love When Harry Met Sally. No, I would not classify myself as a slut. Yes, it was kinda dumb. I love it anyway. Plblblblbbbt.

Jenny: The actions that matter are those that have meaning, not just running to tell somebody something. Catch a cab, for god’s sake.

Lucy: Honestly. You think she’s going to want to kiss you when you’re all sweaty? Please.

Jenny: They can be really exciting on film but they die on paper.

Lucy: They do.

Jenny: Or the run in Morning Glory where it’s 10AM and she’s running through NYC in a prom dress and heels. I love that movie but that was a stupid Rom Com Run.

Lucy: I think it’s a movie thing. The visual urgency of it.

Jenny: But there is a scene in that movie that I think might be comparable, when she realizes what an idiot she’s been walking out on Patrick Wilson. You don’t see her running to the apartment, you just see him opening the door, and she hits him full tilt and knocks him back against the wall, kissing him. That’s the kind of rom com run you can put on paper. But I don’t think I ever have.

Lucy: Yeah, and that was fun. I liked that. I don’t think I have, either.

Jenny: At the end of the first Liz book, Liz is in physical danger and Vince comes running in to save her, but it’s to save her, not to tell her he loves her.

Lucy: Rushing to save her is different. That’s the action of the book. I’ve had a couple running to rescues, but not running to declare. My guys are a little more laid back about that. They declare in their own good time.

Jenny: But at the end of the book, in the resolution, Liz is leaving town, and he pulls her over (he’s a cop) because she was leaving without saying good-bye, and he gives her something she’d asked for at the beginning of the book. She still leaves, but his actions make her realize she’s going to have to come back to him. So that’s a kind of rom com run. With sirens. Sirens are always good, I think.

Lucy: Sirens are excellent. Oh, I did have a midnight run on New Year’s Eve! In The Fortune Quilt. But she took a cab. I guess that counts.

Jenny: That counts. The Run part is symbolic.

Lucy: Oh, good! I get the extra points!

Jenny: Yes, Lucy, you get the extra points.

Lucy: Yay!

Jenny: Jeez.

Lucy: What? I’m competitive. I like points.

Jenny: So let’s talk about how we learned to avoid shopping at The Rom Com Store, buying into the cliches that make rom com readers scream. There’s The Rom Com Run, The Big Misunderstanding, The Cute Dorky Heroine We Like To Make Fun Of . . .

Lucy: You mean the Manic Pixie Dream Girl? Played in everyone’s heads by Zooey Deschanel?

Jenny: No, I’m okay with the MPDG because sometimes she works. I mean the heroine who’s Too Dumb Too Live with a Side Order of Klutz so that the reader laughs at her.

Lucy: Oh, yeah. She’s bad.

Jenny: Perfect example: The dinner scene in The Ugly Truth where she’s wearing the vibrator panties and loses the remote and the kid at the next table picks it up . . . I just threw up in my mouth a little typing that. Don’t make fun of your heroine. Stupid is not funny, it’s sad.

Lucy: Absolutely. I think using anyone as the butt of a joke is bad – mean-spirited humor reveals a mean spirit in the book, and that’s no fun – but humiliating your heroine undercuts her as the protagonist.

Jenny: And it’s also demeaning to women. I’m talking heroines. You can have all the stupid supporting character you want. Well, the hero and heroine can’t make fun of stupid people. Other people in the book can. We’re not writing The Book of Saints here.

Lucy: You absolutely can, although I have a hard time with making fun of people in general. I mean, if you have an ass for a supporting character, and they make their own problems, that’s one thing. But I hate mean-spirited humor; the fat jokes, the ugly jokes, the stupid jokes. They bug me.

Jenny: Sam’s youngest cousin in You Again, Ruby, is one of those people who was born without a filter: she thinks it, she says it. The rest of the family get exasperated with her, but Sam and Zelda both just accept that that’s Ruby.

Lucy: I think bad people bring their karma on themselves, and they get what they deserve. I don’t like it when someone’s vulnerable, and they’re used as the butt of jokes. Like the fat cheerleader scene in Dodgeball. That’s what I’m talking about.

Jenny: Right, but having a character make the fat jokes can characterize that character. You want a bad guy, have him make a fat joke. Although I had a bad guy make a mean joke in Welcome to Temptation and a lot of people thought it was funny. Of course the person he made the joke about deserved it. Hmmmm. Just can’t be the protagonists.

Lucy: Yes, exactly. But in that case, it’s supposed to be bad. When the POV characters do stuff like that, for the sake of a joke, I think it undercuts them. I’m not about writing saints; they annoy me. But mean-spirited humor will make me not respect them anymore.

Jenny: Oh, the Dodgeball cheerleader. One of two flaws in an otherwise perfect movie. Dodgeball is a good example because it violated the spirit of the movie. A movie about the underdog was making fun of the underdog. So you have to make sure that if you’re making a fat joke or whatever, that it’s clear that it’s from a character the world of the book doesn’t approve of, that that character violates the worldview of the story/protagonists.

Lucy: Exactly; that’s why you have to be careful about where your humor comes from. When you’re trying for jokes, you can fall prey to that kind of humor. Humor grows organically. Like… kudzu.

Jenny: But you know, you’re right. You have to be careful even then.

Lucy: Did you see how I didn’t mention the mold? See how sensitive I’m being?

Jenny:You’re trying hard. STOP SAYING “MOLD.”

Lucy: Okay. I’ll stop saying mold. Whoops.

Jenny: Fortunately, I have learned patience rooming with you. How about The Big Misunderstanding? I hate that one. By the end, if these two people haven’t learned to communicate, they’re never going to.

Lucy: The Big Misunderstanding/The Lie. Let’s talk about that. About NOT doing that. That drives me crazy.

Jenny: Well, lies are off the table. Anybody who lies in a relationship is stabbing it in the heart.

Lucy: I had so much fun in A Little Night Magic making Liv completely straightforward about everything. She never lies to Tobias, or to anyone. She lays everything out, and I really enjoyed writing her that way.

Jenny: I know. Liz never lies. Ever. I didn’t realize how hard that was going to be until I started writing it because she doesn’t even do the white lies, but it’s one of the things that fascinates Vince. She never ever lies.

Lucy: The Big Misunderstanding is also a false form of conflict. If the conflict between two people can be cleared up by a conversation, it’s bad conflict. “That woman I had my arm around? That’s what you were so upset about? That was my SISTER!” Argh. Friends played really nicely with that once. A guy Rachel was dating had a woman in his apartment, and it was cleared up right away that she was his sister, but then he was REALLY creepily inappropriate with her. That was funny.

Jenny: I remember that. It was. It was funnier because it played with that stupid trope, turned it on its head. There was a scene in an episode of The Unusuals where the protagonist is told that somebody saw her guy out with another woman the night before. And the next scene is her meeting said guy at a restaurant and saying, “Who were you out with last night?” I love that protagonist.

Lucy: I loved The Unusuals. I’m still heartbroken about that getting cancelled.

Jenny: Me, too. Plus then you get to real conflict. In that Unusuals episode, the guy said, “Look, we never said we were exclusive, and you hate going out to expensive restaurants. You hate my life. That’s not good for me.” And he was right. Real problems trump fake problems.

Lucy: Have your characters be direct; there’s so much more opportunity for fun there.

Jenny: Absolutely.

Lucy: Oh! And that terrible scene in Friends with Benefits where she overhears him saying things he doesn’t mean to his sister, and then leaves and doesn’t tell him she heard, all the while hiding in his nephew’s saw-the-woman-in-half box. And then we had to sit through a bunch of stupid magic tricks to set it up. Blech.

Jenny: Oh, dear god, that was awful. Terrible start to that move, great middle, terrible ending. Of course, without the Big M, you have to come up with real conflict. In You Again, Sam and Zelda are really up front with each other and therefore have no problems. Thank God somebody’s trying to kill her.

Lucy: Which is why you need an antagonist.

Jenny: Exactly. Come to think of it, somebody’s trying to kill Liz, too. And isn’t somebody trying to kill Liv? Take something from her that will kill her? What every rom com needs: a homicidal maniac.

Lucy: Absolutely. Threat of imminent death does a lot to move a romance along. We don’t have all day here. The Big Bads in A Little Night Magic aren’t really trying to kill Liv, so much as Liv dying is a consequence of what they’re trying to do. So she needs Tobias’s protection, and he’s trying to stay level-headed without getting involved. But he loves her. He can’t help it.

Jenny: But does he know she’s going to die if he doesn’t stop them?

Lucy: He can’t stop them; only she can. He can help her. Which is another thing I like; no one rescues Liv. She rescues herself. But Tobias needs to help her, and he always lets her find her own strength. I love that about him.

Jenny: And real conflict tends to blot out Big Misunderstandings anyway. “Somebody’s trying to kill me and you’re saving me: I don’t give a rat’s ass who you might have had dinner with last night.” The Big Misunderstanding is almost always a patch to cover the There’s-No-Conflict hole.

Lucy: Right. It’s a relative scale. If your biggest problem is that your boyfriend had dinner with a woman who may or may not have been his sister last night, you don’t have big problems.

Jenny: It really goes back to that working together thing. If you’ve worked with somebody and you know them, you’re less likely to be dumb about misunderstandings.

Lucy: The Big Misunderstanding is jazz hands. There’s no conflict here. Ta-daaaaaaaaa.

Jenny: LOL. I thought snappy patter was jazz hands.

Lucy: Well, if there’s any trust in the relationship, you don’t have Big Misunderstandings. You ask. “Hey, who’d you have dinner with last night?” Boom. Done. On to bigger things. Like the crazy person who wants me dead.

Jenny: It’s more of “This is not the conflict you were looking for.”

Lucy: Yes, the Jedi mind trick of RomCom.

Jenny: Exactly. Can you think of anything else?

Lucy: Respecting each other is a huge thing.

Jenny: Absolutely. And trusting each other. Oh, light bulb moment. The Big Misunderstanding doesn’t work because it shows a lack of trust and respect.

Lucy: If she thinks he’s an oaf, it’s done. If he thinks she’s an idiot, it’s done. Absolutely. It’s all connected together. Like that big mushroom.

Jenny: If either one thinks the other would cheat, they’re done. What big mushroom? There’s a mushroom?

Lucy: The big mushroom. The one that goes for miles and it looks like a bunch of different mushrooms, but it’s really one big organism under the earth. Trust, respect, and no misunderstandings; one big mushroom. And hey, I didn’t say mold.

Jenny: I was not previously aware of this mushroom.

Lucy: Dude. Scientific American.

Jenny: You read Scientific American?

Lucy: No. But I read blogs by people who read Scientific American.

Jenny: Ah.

Lucy: You know six degrees of separation? I’m two degrees of smart.

Jenny: Excellent.

Lucy: I find a low bar benefits everyone.

Jenny: Well, the internet is a low bar. Especially the way I use it.

Lucy: Hey, you subscribe to Psychology Today. I’ve seen it in the kitchen.

Jenny: That’s for fiction. You can get some pretty fine character ideas in that sucker.

Lucy: Still. Smart. You have to be. You’re most of my one degree.

Jenny: We never see anybody else. We’re most of both of our degrees. We should get out more.

Lucy: We really should.

Jenny: So what we learned from PopD: Character first. Working together. Shares senses of humor. Trust. No Big Misunderstandings. RomCom Runs only if absolutely necessary and in character. Humor from character. Public declarations from character. Banter as a game, not a battle. Is that it?

Lucy: Well, that and remember: It’s all one big mushroom.

Lucy March’s A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin’s Press on January 31, 2012.

Jenny Crusie’s You Again and Lavender’s Blue will be out from St. Martin’s Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody’s guess.

I’m stopping now, because dinner is going to be amazing.

I wasn’t sure that the potatoes were quite… right. They came out okay, but the recipe called for more garlic than I think it probably needed, and definitely more milk and butter than it needed. And you must understand, I am a huge fan of garlic, milk and butter. But still, they came out okay. Yum.

Will report back after dinner. Gotta go poke a sick puppy with fluids.

She said, “Butter and wine.”

“Damn straight.”

At that moment, she found a plate of wrapped up butter bits, and a full pound of sticks. There are some things in life you think, and there are some you know; I know there’s butter. Always, there is butter.

On the menu today, we have garlic mashed potatoes, green bean casserole, corn mini-muffins, pumpkin pie, potato-mushroom casserole, stuffing, gravy and twelve pounds of turkey. Oh, plus sugar cookies, brownies and chocolate chip cookies.

For five people.

Blurp.

But those recipes for Crusie’s book are going to be fantastic.

I’m on glass #2 of the fabulous Bota Box Shiraz. Anyone who is snobby about box wine—and I used to be one of your number—you can knock it off now. That stuff is goooooood, along with their Old Vine Zinfandel. I have yet to try the whites, but I wouldn’t hesitate. That’s some great stuff. The official wine of the holidays at Squalor on the River.

Okay. Gotta check on the potatoes. YUM.

I just wept over shallots for the first time in years. My eyes are still recovering.

The wine is good. Crusie’s sauteeing mushrooms and onions and shallots in butter and it smells amazing.

The turkey is roasting in the oven, basting in butter and the bitter remains of its resentment.

It’s Thanksgiving.

A few moments ago, we were both passing through this thin galley kitchen with knives; mine pointed down, hers pointed up. Then she said, “What you should do is hold it straight out, so anyone who walks into it doesn’t do it again.”

I’m taking that as a warning.

Meanwhile, I have sliced mushrooms, snapped green beans, grated cheese and been called a luddite because I didn’t use Crusie’s new mandolin for the mushrooms. But she’d just had a mildly orgasmic experience with it (“Look at these potatoes!’) and I felt decorum mandated that I give them both a little time first…

Everything smells fabulous. I have not yet poured a glass of wine, but that moment is coming…. probably right after I hit update.

Then I discovered that the kids had pizza yesterday at their dad’s, which is totally cool. It’s just that I planned pizza thinking he was planning a traditional Thanksgiving, not wanting to force the kids to eat turkey two days in a row. It seems that their dad was thinking the same thing. Which is funny, because we’ve been communicating very well lately.

But hey. It happens.

Then Jenny e-mailed me from downstairs. (For those of you new to my life, it’s a big house, she lives in the basement, my husband and kids and I live in the attic, and the party’s on the second floor.) Originally, she wasn’t going to be here for Thanksgiving, but she has a killer sinus infection and it wasn’t a good idea for her to make the big drive to see her family. So she’s here. And she has everything for Thanksgiving, because a character in her book is making a big Thanksgiving feast, and she needs to test recipes. But she can’t taste anything because of said killer sinus infection, so she needs us to taste everything.

Anyway, she e-mailed me and said, “When do you need the kitchen? Because I’m gonna cook.”

And I said, “Hey, guess what?”

So, the combination of her needing the recipes and me needing to not feed my kids pizza three meals in a row (they had it at their dad’s for breakfast this morning, too, NO JUDGMENT, I have been known to do the same) means that right now I’m in the kitchen with Jen as she figures out what she can substitute for the gruyere cheese she was supposed to get, and I’m debating whether noon is too early for wine.

We will be dual live-blogging for the entirety.

And this is how I return to blogging after six months away. Hello, everybody. Good to see you again.

And so now, today, with gratitude and excitement, I pass over to you the Bettyverse. This is your playground, Betties. Swirl it up with FGBVs, share your journeys, and take those first steps toward your life. Nothing’s over. To be honest, I think it’s only now beginning.

See you there…

Now, I’m staring down the barrelhead of forty. I have – give me a moment to calculate, carry the one… ah – 516 days until I turn forty. A year and change. I don’t fret the Big Ones too much – it’s the little ones that sneak up on you and accumulate while you’re not looking – but it’s as good a day as any to shoot for.

Shoot for what, you ask? Change. While I have lost all the things that were good about me at 24 – the anti-gravity boobs, the unlined face, the boundless energy and the ability to wear short skirts – I have kept many of the bad things. The willful ignorance of my own feelings and motivations; the lack of understanding of where I came from and where I’m going; the need to not be a burden while taking on as many burdens as I can carry; the certainty that I understood how the world worked, what was good and what was bad, and how I fit into the whole big mess.

There is nothing, Dear Reader, more damaging than certainty.

I don’t think I can ever adequately express the breadth of my gratitude to all of you. Whether you’ve been here from day one or just hopped in last week, you have been part of this journey, my journey, and I thank you for that. This process has brought me peace, love, and understanding, Bacon and Betties, and I will always look back on this time in my life with wonder and humility, because I still don’t understand why I won this incredible life lottery, why I got to be the person who assembled this incredible group of people together. I can only attribute it to outrageous fortune and unfathomable blessing. I am, quite literally, the luckiest bitch in the world.

Tomorrow in this space will be a quick post with links to the Bettyverse, which opens for business in the morning. I will writing the opening post there, which will show up on the 8th, and then I’ll be posting every Monday thereafter. What you will soon come to realize, though, is that I’m far less unique and essential to this community than it appears. I’m going to happily step aside and let some of you discover how much you don’t need me.

Have a wonderful day, Betties, and while it’s so inadequate as to be laughable, it needs saying so… thank you.

Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is #482: Vajazzled:

“How does a person come up with the idea?” I said. “You’re sitting around, bummed about the breakup, you go to your craft table, you see the glue, see the crystals and BOOM, inspiration strikes? She couldn’t have made a picture frame?”

“I think it was her friend’s idea,” Jenny said. “You know, going the extra mile for sisterhood.  Maybe there was wine.”

“And really,” I said. “I mean, you and I, we’re close. We live together. But you have to be a very special kind of close with someone to say, ‘I know you’re bummed. How about I come over, make margaritas, watch Pirates of the Carribean and glue crystals to your mons pubis?’”

“I love crafts,” Jenny said, “but I would not do that.”

“Me, either.”

We indulged a moment of contemplative silence, and then Jenny said, “Krissie would.”

Ah. Good times. I remember that post with such fondness because it was the first time in a long time that I’d been able to write something that was actually funny. I missed that. Then there’s #445: From the Latin, Vexare, which I also quite enjoyed. It was the first time I’d run out of topics to write about, and just started spouting choppy thoughts. This would happen a lot more often, but the first time was a lot of fun for me. I got hooked on elephants.

We’re going out to dinner tonight. Outback Steakhouse. Never been, can you believe it? Been warned against the Bloomin’ Onion. I hear there’s enough calories and fat in it to put down a very large elephant. That said, it’s a vegetable, right? How bad can it be?

Elephants are cool animals. I like them. They never think, “Do I look fat?” And if anyone says anything they don’t like, they just blow a loud elephant raspberry. “Screw you! I like peanuts! I’m afraid of mice! I remember everything! I don’t care what you think!”

You know, the Mythbusters did an episode once that proved that elephants are, in fact, afraid of mice. And they are a gazillion times bigger than mice. So I’m going to remind Jenny of that the next time she reminds me that I’m so much bigger than the bat that freaked me out. So… ha!

Bats are freaky, though. I mean, come on.

But my favorite of all, I think, was the set. #396: Who Said That? and its sister #395: Who Said That? Answers. It was so much fun to watch you guys guess. And those quotes have become household staples now, the sourdough starter of household memes. Ones that survive to this day?

I’m gonna have a piece of bacon and a chocolate chip cookie and get back to work. (Jenny, said without irony at all, but I busted out laughing and that was it.)

Agggggggggggggggggggggggggh! I slammed my fingers in the door again! (Sweetness)

I’m sorry. You’re right, ‘I slammed my fingers in the door,’ isn’t funny. But ‘I slammed my fingers in the door AGAIN’? Funny! (Me. Which has now morphed into, “It’s the AGAIN that makes it funny.” I’m not the world’s most sympathetic mom.)

That weed was a whore. (Light)

I-BLE.  HORR-I-BLE.  You have to say it all. (Jenny, who felt a little bad, because we were playing Littlest Pet Shop Go Fish one night, and it’s pretty cutthroat here at Squalor on the River, so I took her Birdie Number Elevens, which are her favorite, not that she’s ever refrained from taking Skunky Number Fours from me, which are my favorite. But anyway. She looked at me and said, “Your mother is a horrible person,” with extended emphasis going to the horr so for a moment there I thought she was saying, “Your mother is a whore,” and I just stared at her as if to say, “Really? We’re going there, are we?” when she finished with “ibble person,” and the next day, Light was calling a weed a whore. Every kid should be raised in this house, I think.)

I STUBBED MY TOE AND I STEPPED IN PEE!!!!!!!!! (Light, who hates it when we bring this up, but seriously, I still laugh when I think about it.)

So, what were your favorite funny days here? And please include comments from the Betties, because I know we’ve had some hilarious contributions from you guys. I just can’t find them all so once again, I’m sending you all out to do my dirty work for me. Plus, this blog is late, and very soon, there will be harassment on Twitter. If there isn’t already. Go to it, Betties! Let’s remember the good times!

This morning, while looking for a topic for today’s post, I traipsed over the one I wrote on Rejecting the Premise:

I’ve failed to reject the premise of that mindset, that I always have to give more, that I always have to be stronger, that I always have to succeed at everything, or I haven’t earned what I have… But finally, tonight, I saw it. I saw that my problems, my failures, stemmed not from my actions, but from my belief system. And even though I’ve hacked away a little at that belief system here, I haven’t truly changed it in my head. The things I say to myself every day are worse than anything anyone has ever said to me in my life, and when there’s even the slightest hint – real or imaginary – of a similar judgment coming from anyone else, I jump on it as some kind of confirmation that deep down inside, I’m right about my lack of value.

It’s just crazy how much I’ve forgotten about what it was like to be me, even just a year ago. Wow.

This idea of rejecting the premise, of taking a good hard look at what you say to yourself and really deciding not to allow anyone to talk to you that way, least of all yourself, is really important, and yet it’s one of the ideas I haven’t revisited a whole lot. There is the Magaera thing, and this is related, except it’s about more than just Magaera, it’s about what you really believe. If you really believe something, you will find the evidence to support it, which just firms it up in your head. It has absolutely no relationship with fact or truth, which is why it’s problematic.

When I was in college, I did a documentary on pyschic phenomena, and ended up interviewing my mother for a segment because she’d spent a lot of time exploring New Agey spiritual stuff like channeling, past lives and the Tarot. There was something she said back then that always stuck with me, and which I still remember often to this day. “It’s like the bible says, seek and ye shall find. If you’re looking for a particular answer, you’ll find it, whether it’s true or not.”

This is obviously true; we see it all the time. Huge political divides, with everyone sure they are right, because the evidence they choose to consider is the evidence that supports their viewpoint. Fundamentalist Christians who believe the earth is 6000 years old, or that the rapture is going to happen at sunset. Atheists who believe that if they can’t see it, poke it, test it and prove it, it doesn’t exist.

And then there are the people like me. The ones who, at some very young age, were made to understand that they were somehow less than everyone else, that they had to do more, be better, just to be almost as acceptable, forget lovable. I started being funny because I believed the only reason anyone would ever want to be my friend was because I amused them; I had to play the court jester to earn my place. I never believed this of anyone else, just myself, and I never questioned it because that belief had been ingrained at such a young age.

Then, last year, I saw it clearly for the first time, and I finally rejected that premise. First, intellectually, but then emotionally, and at some point during the last year when I was distracted by drama and kids and books and my lovely Scotsman, it just went away.

So today, look at your beliefs. Question them. Reject any premises which hold you to a different standard from what you hold everyone else to. Reject any premises that tell you you’re unworthy, not good enough, too old, too fat, too stubborn, too set in your ways. Reject any premises that sound like someone else – your dad, your mom, your ex – saying horrible things to you because keeping you in line means life is easier for them.

Betties, you are fabulous, you deserve every great thing the world has to offer, and you don’t have to be twice as good just to be half as acceptable. You are lovable, just as you are, and there is nothing wrong with you. Embrace that premise, and reject the rest.

Trust me. It’ll be among the best things you’ll ever do.